Re: [SLUG-POL] U.S. no longer top tech nation

From: Dylan Hardison (dylanwh@gmail.com)
Date: Wed Mar 23 2005 - 16:33:12 EST


[Blaa, I wrote this a while ago, and sent it, but apparently I wasn't subscribed
with this address.]

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:45:45 -0500, Paul M Foster
<paulf@quillandmouse.com> wrote:
> I don't believe hard or long work ever hurt anyone, and I don't believe
> Americans are overworked, even if they do work more hours. European
> workers are trying to live in that socialist paradise their leaders have
> been telling them about, and it's not working.

What are you basing those statements on?
How many europeans have you talked to?
How many years have you been a european worker?
Can you provide facts that European leaders tell their populaces to
live in a socialist paradise?

Myself, I've never been a European worker, but I know a lot of Europeans.
So, I showed the email to an Englishman, a Norwegian,
an Australian that has lived in London for a year or so, a Netherlander,
and a Spaniard. I then got permision to quote them:

** From an Englishman:
> Americans work longer hours. They get paid more, too. We don't live in a socialist
> paradise, but we do have some advantages, for which we pay more taxes.
> Obviously nobody likes taxes, but the general view here is that if they are
> necessary to provide the level of services, then that's the cost.

** From a Norwegian:
> I'm a socialist, Norways current leaders are asshats, and schooling pretty much
> tells me the better ones survive.
> it's more of a socialist paradise than a lot of other places,
> but no, it needs lots of work before the socialist paradise thing will work.
> and it never will, because not everyone wants it that way.

** From an Australian living in London for the past year:
> I think balance is a good thing in life
> and that there's not much point in hard work if you don't get to enjoy
> what it buys you
> I didn't think capitalism was about working people until they die.
> people often use socialist to mean anything that means big
> companies need to work ethically
> I think you could definitely argue that people are hurt by longer hours anyway.
> people complain that the fabric of society is being weakened and that
> kids are growing up unruly.
> how can people build family or community if they don't have any time
> or energy left after working?

** From a Netherlander:
> European leaders don't promise people a socialist paradise,
> though, they just promise people that their whole lives don't have
> to be centered around the concept of working as much as possible
> just to meet their basic needs.
> Most of the European countries seem to work better than the US, though..
> Given the insane budget brokenness you have there.
> The Netherlands has a system which means, if you're capable of work,
> you work, but you don't have to spend insane amounts of your time
> working just to meet basic needs.
> People really do work here .. sometimes more money is spent on
> supporting people who want to work then they actually get via salary,
> but it's felt that that's worth it anyway

** From a Spaniard:
> I'd ignore it, looks way too much like a troll
> I mean, either it's a troll or it's an awesome moron who hasn't heard of
> say, construction workers and miners
> What do you mean by socialist paradise, anyway?
> That sounds like an American concept.
> I'd say that here the political situation is rather different,
> so I really haven't heard of people debating if we live in a "socialist paradise",
> or whatever.
> Hm, also, I have my doubts about the "it's not working" part.
> The Euro currently has more value than the US Dollar, and while in
> Spain we have rather high unemployment and aren't exactly
> swimming in money, I wouldn't say there are any big economical problems.

Now, I am not saying my research shows yours to be incorrect.
or that these people whom are my friends are a good sampling of the
average European. Nevertheless, I find having first hand sources of
information much better than inventing stuff to help my argument.
Not that you did that; I just have no proof you did not.

> You used to be able to have a single bread-winner in a home and have a
> comfortable life. Those days are long gone, because our government(s)
> taxes us at a crushing rate.
My father is the sole "bread-winner" for my atomic family unit.
Taxes are the least of our concerns.

Note that the above people I quoted on average pay much, much, much
higher taxes than we in this country do, with a higher standard of living.

In the Netherlands, 8mbps/1mbps ADSL with multiple static IPs, no
caps, and no transparent proxies can be had for less than a dial-up
connection here.

Let's not play pretend that the US is the only place in the world that
has a free market, or that having strong social services prevents a
strong free market economy.



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