From owner-slug-politics-track29@homer.mkintl.com Thu May 24 00:27:44 2001 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA14520 for slug-politics-track29; Thu, 24 May 2001 00:27:44 -0400 Received: from cloven.nks.net (cloven.nks.net [192.168.1.252]) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA14517 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 00:27:44 -0400 Received: from smtp012.mail.yahoo.com (smtp012.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.32]) by cloven.nks.net with SMTP id AAA24681 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 00:35:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 653268hfc60.tampabay.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.32.68.60) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 May 2001 04:27:42 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B0C8B3C.900139EC@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 00:17:00 -0400 From: Norbert Cartagena X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.0-4GB i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SLUG Politics Subject: [SLUG-POL] Re: [SLUG] CTS Radio Commercial References: <000601c0e3ef$24e8cf60$11412041@newcomputer.tampabay.rr.com> <20010523232653.A6580@quillandmouse.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: slug-politics@nks.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: slug-politics@nks.net Paul M Foster wrote: > > > WFLA 970 AM > Ahh yes, 970... Limbaugh Central, bastion of the Far Nutty Right (GOP/Liberatarians). (figured this list was too quiet and I needed to say something inflamatory to get *something* started ;) Norb _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-slug-politics-track29@homer.mkintl.com Thu May 24 01:10:58 2001 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA14843 for slug-politics-track29; Thu, 24 May 2001 01:10:58 -0400 Received: from cloven.nks.net (cloven.nks.net [192.168.1.252]) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA14840 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 01:10:58 -0400 Received: from quillandmouse.com (tamqfl1-ar4-076-029.tamqfl1.dsl.gtei.net [4.41.76.29]) by cloven.nks.net with ESMTP id BAA24941 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 01:18:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from paulf by quillandmouse.com with local (Exim 3.16 #1) id 152nQy-0001p0-00 for slug-politics@nks.net; Thu, 24 May 2001 01:13:16 -0400 Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 01:13:16 -0400 From: Paul M Foster To: SLUG Politics Subject: Re: [SLUG-POL] Re: [SLUG] CTS Radio Commercial Message-ID: <20010524011316.A6991@quillandmouse.com> Mail-Followup-To: SLUG Politics References: <000601c0e3ef$24e8cf60$11412041@newcomputer.tampabay.rr.com> <20010523232653.A6580@quillandmouse.com> <3B0C8B3C.900139EC@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3B0C8B3C.900139EC@yahoo.com>; from niccademous@yahoo.com on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 12:17:00AM -0400 Sender: slug-politics@nks.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: slug-politics@nks.net On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 12:17:00AM -0400, Norbert Cartagena wrote: > Paul M Foster wrote: > > > > > > > WFLA 970 AM > > > > > Ahh yes, 970... Limbaugh Central, bastion of the Far Nutty Right > (GOP/Liberatarians). > > (figured this list was too quiet and I needed to say something > inflamatory to get *something* started ;) > Well, I'm glad you had the good sense to post to this list instead of the SLUG list. Of course, there is not a Far Nutty Right, nor is there a vast right-wing conspiracy. What there is, however, is a morally bankrupt left. Daschle alluded to this the other day, when he talked about the "valuable services" that the government is providing. I refer you to the Constitution, which basically says that any powers not specifically granted to the federal government by the Constitution are to be exercised by the states or by the individual. Ninety percent of what the government does and what the government funds today is far outside the province of powers granted by the Constitution. The left's way of getting around this is to get activist judges who legislate from the bench as a way to get around the fact that laws favoring their positions will not pass. Daschle is one of the best examples of the left. Listen to him and then read up on the facts. Virtually everything he says is a distortion, and is intended to shore up his position in a PR sense. But his claims are generally vacuous. It's a wonderful game these folks have going. It's been going on for decades, ever since about FDR's time. We increase taxes so we have money to play with. Then we offer money as a carrot and withhold it as a stick to get three things: 1) forward our agenda, 2) get ourselves re-elected, and 3) garner more power for ourselves, so we can do more of 1 and 2. We profess to be in favor of social causes, but truthfully only insofar as it assists in 1, 2 and 3 above. Examples are legion. And the Republicans are often guilty of the same thing. But the left has crafted this into an absolute art form, and Daschle is the Rembrandt of the art. Since I'm not in any mood to take shit from anyone right now (yeah, it does happen once in a while), I'll end here. If I go any further, Norb will reply with _two_ books' worth instead of one. Paul From owner-slug-politics-track29@homer.mkintl.com Thu May 24 10:47:50 2001 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA18151 for slug-politics-track29; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:47:50 -0400 Received: from cloven.nks.net (cloven.nks.net [192.168.1.252]) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18148 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:47:50 -0400 Received: from fl-mta01.durocom.com (fl-mta01.durocom.com [216.53.195.242]) by cloven.nks.net with ESMTP id KAA28088 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:55:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mpinet.net ([216.53.218.81]) by fl-mta01.durocom.com with ESMTP id <20010524144747.DIHQ10269.fl-mta01@mpinet.net> for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:47:47 -0400 Message-ID: <3B0D1DBF.C042B62C@mpinet.net> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:42:07 -0400 From: Smitty <76543a@mpinet.net> Organization: Destroy All Spammers X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.0-4GB i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: slug-politics@nks.net Subject: Re: [SLUG-POL] Re: [SLUG] CTS Radio Commercial References: <000601c0e3ef$24e8cf60$11412041@newcomputer.tampabay.rr.com> <20010523232653.A6580@quillandmouse.com> <3B0C8B3C.900139EC@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: slug-politics@nks.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: slug-politics@nks.net Norb, Frankly, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I suggest you read some libertarian authored books (you have no excuse not to as you work in a bookstore) before you spew forth political stupidity. Limbaugh is a conservative and if you knew anything at all about libertarianism, you would not be advertising your ignorance by confusing the two. Smitty Norbert Cartagena wrote: > > Paul M Foster wrote: > > > > > > > WFLA 970 AM > > > > > Ahh yes, 970... Limbaugh Central, bastion of the Far Nutty Right > (GOP/Liberatarians). > > (figured this list was too quiet and I needed to say something > inflamatory to get *something* started ;) > > Norb > From owner-slug-politics-track29@homer.mkintl.com Thu May 24 13:35:45 2001 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA19282 for slug-politics-track29; Thu, 24 May 2001 13:35:45 -0400 Received: from cloven.nks.net (cloven.nks.net [192.168.1.252]) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19279 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 13:35:44 -0400 Received: from keepandbeararms.com ([207.30.169.8]) by cloven.nks.net with ESMTP id NAA29070 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 13:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:44:31 -0700 Message-Id: <200105241344.AA4325940@keepandbeararms.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "tom ufer" To: Subject: Re: [SLUG-POL] Re: [SLUG] CTS Radio Commercial X-Mailer: Sender: slug-politics@nks.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: slug-politics@nks.net Limbaugh supports the NRA, that's all I need to know.... Can you guys guess I'm a one issue voter/supporter?? :-) >On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 12:17:00AM -0400, Norbert Cartagena wrote: > >> >> > >> > WFLA 970 AM >> > >> >> >> Ahh yes, 970... Limbaugh Central, bastion of the Far Nutty Right >> (GOP/Liberatarians). From owner-slug-politics-track29@homer.mkintl.com Thu May 24 22:33:14 2001 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA22482 for slug-politics-track29; Thu, 24 May 2001 22:33:14 -0400 Received: from cloven.nks.net (cloven.nks.net [192.168.1.252]) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA22479 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 22:33:14 -0400 Received: from smtp017.mail.yahoo.com (smtp017.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.114]) by cloven.nks.net with SMTP id WAA01795 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 22:40:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 653268hfc126.tampabay.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.32.68.126) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 May 2001 02:33:12 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B0DC452.A6241345@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:32:50 -0400 From: Norbert Cartagena X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.0-4GB i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: slug-politics@nks.net Subject: Re: [SLUG-POL] Re: [SLUG] CTS Radio Commercial References: <000601c0e3ef$24e8cf60$11412041@newcomputer.tampabay.rr.com> <20010523232653.A6580@quillandmouse.com> <3B0C8B3C.900139EC@yahoo.com> <20010524011316.A6991@quillandmouse.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: slug-politics@nks.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: slug-politics@nks.net > Since I'm not in any mood to take shit from anyone right now (yeah, it > does happen once in a while), I'll end here. If I go any further, Norb > will reply with _two_ books' worth instead of one. > *LOL* Alright, then I'll let this one pass from you. But, let it be known that Daschle is an example of the far nutty Left - hell, the guy might as well be a Socialist. Even though, I do agree that we SHOULD have things like Universal Health Care and a workers rights system a bit more like Germany's where apparently family values are ACTUALLY valued (ie. Higer minimum wages let people not have to work as much which means they get to spend time with their kids more often. Now THAT's putting emphasis on family values. You don't get that from the morally corrupt, money driven Right). P.S. Actually, I DID think I posted it to the list by accident when my Netscape filtering let this one go through to the other list. I was WAY scared that I let it go to the wrong list. Needless to say *whew!* Norb _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-slug-politics-track29@homer.mkintl.com Thu May 24 23:06:59 2001 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA22616 for slug-politics-track29; Thu, 24 May 2001 23:06:59 -0400 Received: from cloven.nks.net (cloven.nks.net [192.168.1.252]) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA22613 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 23:06:59 -0400 Received: from smtp016.mail.yahoo.com (smtp016.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.113]) by cloven.nks.net with SMTP id XAA01896 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 23:14:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 653268hfc126.tampabay.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.32.68.126) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 May 2001 03:06:57 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B0DCC3B.46E82D74@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 23:06:35 -0400 From: Norbert Cartagena X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.0-4GB i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: slug-politics@nks.net Subject: Re: [SLUG-POL] Re: [SLUG] CTS Radio Commercial References: <000601c0e3ef$24e8cf60$11412041@newcomputer.tampabay.rr.com> <20010523232653.A6580@quillandmouse.com> <3B0C8B3C.900139EC@yahoo.com> <3B0D1DBF.C042B62C@mpinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: slug-politics@nks.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: slug-politics@nks.net Smitty wrote: > > Norb, > Frankly, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I suggest > you read some libertarian authored books (you have no excuse not to as > you work in a bookstore) before you spew forth political stupidity. > Limbaugh is a conservative and if you knew anything at all about > libertarianism, you would not be advertising your ignorance by confusing > the two. > Smitty > Actually, I DO know what the fuck I'm talking about. I'm not reffering to the social aspects of the Liberatarian agenda as opposed to the GOP agenda. In fact, like Harry Browne, I agree that non-violent drug offenses shopuld not be criminally prosecuted, though I do believe it should be treated as the disease it is, like Alcoholism (I don't agree that we should do away with the military or the education system or privatize prisions or pull out of the UN and NATO, or allow the rampant growth of the WTO, unempeeded by those evil environmental and worker protecting laws that sovereighnties DARE uphold). However, The far nutty right that I'm talking about is the abusive form of Mills's Liberatarian philosophy which the far far Republican right (the - as described by many of its own members - "Liberatarian wing" of the party), in which, yes, to each their own, but unless it's done responsively it will not only neccessarily affect others, but rather it will also affect and impede upon another's freedoms. My example of this is the ecological attrocities which King George and Dick Cheney (oh, such appropriate name), are paving the way for with their new legislation (energy). Such short sightedness and plain-out greed should be prosecuted (c'mon, can you actually tell me that two Texas oil men don't have their minds more on their wallets than on the health of the nation when it comes to Oil? If you believe that, then I have a bridge in Frisco that I'd like to sell you). It is people like these that support the increase of wealth of the ultra wealthy, turning a blind eye to the way that future generations, as well as current ones, are being and will be affected. Liberatarian philisophy works the same way when applied to government in that it does not enforce the right of an individual to enjoy complete freedoms in the case of another more wealthy and powerful individual's attempt to take that freedom away - for example, the freedom to go to the beach and be relatively safe, as opposed to swimming in water that has more industrial pollutants than Houston, due to the government not taking the freedom to pollute indiscriminantly from a mega-corporation, such as GE or Exxon. The more powerful in this case has taken the freedom away from the first individual to both enjoy themselves and the freedom to have a healthy life if they so choose. In short, Liberatarianism works well at the micro level, but fails miserably at the macro level - it introduces individual freedom without responsibility. In fact, it is Liberatarians who often argue that Gates is NOT a monopolist, even though he has OBVIOUSLY taken the freedoms of others away. This is what I consider the far nutty right. Of course, here I'm talking about economics, not reffering to the "moral superiority" of the far-nutty GOP Right (don't get me into that one). There is a difference in the social aspect, but when it comes to economics the GOP and Liberatarians are merely examples of someone going too far and the other saying "it's not far enough!" Norb, Perfect centrist, but absolute leftist if viewed from the Far Nutty right. (P.S. Paul, as for a vast right-wing conspirracy, what do you call the WTO?) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-slug-politics-track29@homer.mkintl.com Thu May 24 23:53:31 2001 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA22770 for slug-politics-track29; Thu, 24 May 2001 23:53:31 -0400 Received: from cloven.nks.net (cloven.nks.net [192.168.1.252]) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA22767 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 23:53:31 -0400 Received: from quillandmouse.com (tamqfl1-ar4-076-029.tamqfl1.dsl.gtei.net [4.41.76.29]) by cloven.nks.net with ESMTP id AAA02026 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:00:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from paulf by quillandmouse.com with local (Exim 3.16 #1) id 1538hn-00023D-00 for slug-politics@nks.net; Thu, 24 May 2001 23:56:03 -0400 Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 23:56:02 -0400 From: Paul M Foster To: slug-politics@nks.net Subject: Re: [SLUG-POL] Re: [SLUG] CTS Radio Commercial Message-ID: <20010524235602.A7726@quillandmouse.com> Mail-Followup-To: slug-politics@nks.net References: <000601c0e3ef$24e8cf60$11412041@newcomputer.tampabay.rr.com> <20010523232653.A6580@quillandmouse.com> <3B0C8B3C.900139EC@yahoo.com> <20010524011316.A6991@quillandmouse.com> <3B0DC452.A6241345@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3B0DC452.A6241345@yahoo.com>; from niccademous@yahoo.com on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 10:32:50PM -0400 Sender: slug-politics@nks.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: slug-politics@nks.net On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 10:32:50PM -0400, Norbert Cartagena wrote: > > > Since I'm not in any mood to take shit from anyone right now (yeah, it > > does happen once in a while), I'll end here. If I go any further, Norb > > will reply with _two_ books' worth instead of one. > > > > > *LOL* Alright, then I'll let this one pass from you. But, let it be > known that Daschle is an example of the far nutty Left - hell, the guy > might as well be a Socialist. Even though, I do agree that we SHOULD > have things like Universal Health Care and a workers rights system a bit > more like Germany's where apparently family values are ACTUALLY valued > (ie. Higer minimum wages let people not have to work as much which means > they get to spend time with their kids more often. Now THAT's putting > emphasis on family values. You don't get that from the morally corrupt, > money driven Right). > Okay, now see, you say something sensible and I think you're going to be all right, and then you dash it all with liberal drivel. ;-} You're almost right about Daschle. But he's only a socialist because it suits his purpose. I think he couldn't care less about the actual issues. His rhetoric marks him as someone who's interested solely in his own power, popularity and re-election prospects. As for universal health care, two things. Show me a country where it _works_. I don't know of one, and Canada is a good example of this. Second, since when is it the government's business to be in the health care field? It ain't in the Constitution, that's for sure. You want universal healthcare? Who will fund it? Oh that's right-- the government. Your taxes will have to rise by quite a bit. And the quality of care will suffer, as it does in Canada. Foreign nationals don't come to the United States for critical health care because it's so cheap here. They come here because the health care is better than anywhere else in the world. Why? Because it's _not_ nationalized. You do realize that every function you add to government, every social program that government does, adds more in tax money they must collect to pay for it? That means less disposable income ( = fewer computers ) for you. And nothing the government does is cheap. No one ever looks at providing goods or services to the government and says, "Oh, the government? Okay, give them the _lowest_ price!" And by the way, the only thing the government does really well is wage war. Everything else they're mediocre at best at. You want to increase the minimum wage? Great. In six months or five years, this will ripple through the economy and everything will cost more. Then they'll have to raise the minimum wage again. That's called government-induced inflation. Go back and re-study economics. The only economy that _works_ is a laissez-faire market-driven economy. You can't impose wage and price controls on an economy and expect it to function properly. Nixon (a republican) tried this with disasterous results. You give these minimum wage people more money in order that they can have a better life ( = buy more stuff ). Great. But some or a lot of their goods rely on the labor of other people who also now make a higher minimum wage. Sooner or later all those nifty things that they want to buy will cost more because of this. And soon, that advantage you've given these people by increasing their minimum wage will disappear. Again, the United States is not the sole superpower because we have a socialist economy. That's Europe. We have a laissez faire market driven economy. That's why we outperform the rest of the world. We are a great country precisely because we _don't_ have the things you're advocating. If we did, we'd be a second-rate country like France or Spain or Bolivia. Unions (which I presume you favor) are a walking disaster. They lessen the amount of product produced and force higher wages. Don't wonder why a postage stamp costs 34 cents or why you can't find a new automobile for less than $10K. The very essence of union activity is the lessening of work and the increase of compensation. How many times have you heard the story of the guy who, new to a union, came in working his ass off? Until some older union guy told him to stop working so hard. It's common. It's no coincidence that union folks get paid by the _hour_, not by the number of widgets produced. Example: the NEA, one of the most evil unions in existence. You know one of the things they fear most? Anything that seriously looks at their performance as teachers. If students were actually tested and schools and teachers graded based on student performance, that would be a disaster for the NEA. And they know it. It's a typical union stance. Not to mention the fact that unions engender an "us vs. them" mentality among union members, an adversarial attitude toward managers. Why do you think non-union companies fight desperately to stay that way? And Germany is a socialist country, just like the rest of Europe. It's beyond me why people worship socialism. It doesn't work. The soviet states died because of it, and Europe is half dead already. The more power you give the central government, the more they will take. In the end, you'll have a nightmare that's for all intents and purposes a prison. Do you realize that recently the British government passed a law that gave the government the power to arrest anyone at will for any reason? They're called "behavioural orders". If they suspect someone could cause trouble, they can be detained. That's what happens in socialist countries. And the more power and responsibility you give the US government, the closer you move to this socialist ideal. The politicians love this, because it gives them something to do and some reason to hang around in Washington. But much of this is moot. The Constitution says the federal government is not to be involved in these things. So they are against the law. If you want a different deal, you have two choices: 1) change the Constitution, or 2) move to a socialist country. Paul PS. Damn. See what you made me do? I've written a _book_. Argh! From owner-slug-politics-track29@homer.mkintl.com Fri May 25 00:09:03 2001 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA22841 for slug-politics-track29; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:09:03 -0400 Received: from cloven.nks.net (cloven.nks.net [192.168.1.252]) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA22838 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:09:02 -0400 Received: from quillandmouse.com (tamqfl1-ar4-076-029.tamqfl1.dsl.gtei.net [4.41.76.29]) by cloven.nks.net with ESMTP id AAA02095 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:16:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from paulf by quillandmouse.com with local (Exim 3.16 #1) id 1538wp-00023S-00 for slug-politics@nks.net; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:11:35 -0400 Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 00:11:35 -0400 From: Paul M Foster To: slug-politics@nks.net Subject: Re: [SLUG-POL] Re: [SLUG] CTS Radio Commercial Message-ID: <20010525001135.B7726@quillandmouse.com> Mail-Followup-To: slug-politics@nks.net References: <000601c0e3ef$24e8cf60$11412041@newcomputer.tampabay.rr.com> <20010523232653.A6580@quillandmouse.com> <3B0C8B3C.900139EC@yahoo.com> <3B0D1DBF.C042B62C@mpinet.net> <3B0DCC3B.46E82D74@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3B0DCC3B.46E82D74@yahoo.com>; from niccademous@yahoo.com on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 11:06:35PM -0400 Sender: slug-politics@nks.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: slug-politics@nks.net On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 11:06:35PM -0400, Norbert Cartagena wrote: > My example of this is the ecological > attrocities which King George and Dick Cheney (oh, such appropriate > name), are paving the way for with their new legislation (energy). Alright, I'm gonna nail you to the wall on this one. Precisely how does more domestic drilling produce ecological atrocities? Alaska has benefitted from their pipeline, at least if you ask the Caribou, which everyone was worried about. Let's just skip the argument that we _need_ to exploit domestic oil supplies. And let's just skip the argument that we should conserve ourselves into non-dependence on oil. And let's just ignore the automatic prejudice you have against the pres and veep because they were in the oil industry. (And by the way, they've divested themselves of oil industry holdings.) And lets just skip the idea that people don't like the way oil derricks _look_ on the tundra or in the Gulf. I want to know exactly what harm is certain from domestic oil exploitation. No rhetoric, buddy. Paul From owner-slug-politics-track29@homer.mkintl.com Fri May 25 00:15:23 2001 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA22880 for slug-politics-track29; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:15:23 -0400 Received: from cloven.nks.net (cloven.nks.net [192.168.1.252]) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA22877 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:15:23 -0400 Received: from quillandmouse.com (tamqfl1-ar4-076-029.tamqfl1.dsl.gtei.net [4.41.76.29]) by cloven.nks.net with ESMTP id AAA02124 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:22:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from paulf by quillandmouse.com with local (Exim 3.16 #1) id 15392x-00023W-00 for slug-politics@nks.net; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:17:55 -0400 Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 00:17:55 -0400 From: Paul M Foster To: slug-politics@nks.net Subject: Re: [SLUG-POL] Re: [SLUG] CTS Radio Commercial Message-ID: <20010525001755.C7726@quillandmouse.com> Mail-Followup-To: slug-politics@nks.net References: <000601c0e3ef$24e8cf60$11412041@newcomputer.tampabay.rr.com> <20010523232653.A6580@quillandmouse.com> <3B0C8B3C.900139EC@yahoo.com> <3B0D1DBF.C042B62C@mpinet.net> <3B0DCC3B.46E82D74@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3B0DCC3B.46E82D74@yahoo.com>; from niccademous@yahoo.com on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 11:06:35PM -0400 Sender: slug-politics@nks.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: slug-politics@nks.net On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 11:06:35PM -0400, Norbert Cartagena wrote: > (P.S. Paul, as for a vast right-wing conspirracy, what do you call the > WTO?) I don't actually know that much about the WTO. I presume their purpose is to promote trade across traditional trade barriers. I fail to see the harm in this. In fact, I can see a great deal of good coming from it. And how is it right-wing? Now, NATO is a vast left-wing conspiracy. Witness their currently scheduled conference on the elimination of small arms all over the world. They are holding closed door meetings to strategize how to eliminate personal ownership of firearms worldwide, including the United States. In complete contravention of our Constitution. This is just one of a number of ultra-liberal things they're involved in. It escapes me why so many conservatives support the UN. Paul From owner-slug-politics-track29@homer.mkintl.com Fri May 25 00:57:08 2001 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA23076 for slug-politics-track29; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:57:08 -0400 Received: from cloven.nks.net (cloven.nks.net [192.168.1.252]) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA23073 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:57:07 -0400 Received: from smtp017.mail.yahoo.com (smtp017.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.114]) by cloven.nks.net with SMTP id BAA02327 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 01:04:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 653268hfc126.tampabay.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.32.68.126) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 May 2001 04:57:06 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B0DE60B.FCCD20E8@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 00:56:43 -0400 From: Norbert Cartagena X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.0-4GB i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: slug-politics@nks.net Subject: Re: [SLUG-POL] Re: [SLUG] CTS Radio Commercial References: <000601c0e3ef$24e8cf60$11412041@newcomputer.tampabay.rr.com> <20010523232653.A6580@quillandmouse.com> <3B0C8B3C.900139EC@yahoo.com> <3B0D1DBF.C042B62C@mpinet.net> <3B0DCC3B.46E82D74@yahoo.com> <20010525001755.C7726@quillandmouse.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: slug-politics@nks.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: slug-politics@nks.net Paul M Foster wrote: > > On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 11:06:35PM -0400, Norbert Cartagena wrote: > > > > > (P.S. Paul, as for a vast right-wing conspirracy, what do you call the > > WTO?) > > I don't actually know that much about the WTO. I presume their purpose > is to promote trade across traditional trade barriers. Yes, that is their stated purpose, but you fail to see AT WHAT COST this is accoplished. These, my friend, are the people who have FORCED us to cahnge many of our environmental laws as well as our worker laws in order to create a more "competitive" environment for multi-national corporations. They force countries to change even their constitutions, threatening forced economic retaliation if they don't, in order to plaease their multi-national corporate masters. A body of nopn-electred officials imposing their will on sovereign nations under the threat of economnic sanctions forced unto their other members (a good example is how ther WTO forced us to put sacntions on India because it was in their constitution to not allow companies to pattent life - ie. pattented bio-engineered organisms which, iunder Indian law, had no validity because, to them no form of life can be pettented. In order to lift sanctions they had to allow Monsanto, the multinational chemical company, to have a pattent on life, which they consider holy and unppattentable). Yeah, the WTO promotes trade, but who comes out winning? The multinationsal that own it, not the citizens of the country they're supposed to help. Remeber those nice dolphin laws we used to have to protect dolphins from getting caught in tuna-nets? Well, im order to allow other countired to "fairly" sell tuna in the US, we HAD to lift those laws!!! Laws we voted on and passed as a sovereignty!!!! Granted, many Tuna companies are still Dolphin safe (so they claim), but many others are not! The point is that out sovereignty as a nation was violated! And this is the result of Capitalism run amok (yeah, capitalism is good, but letting it run free is NOT a good idea). Yeah, the market will sort itself out -- into 8 or so mega corporations that will implant chips on your butt to know what you do with who and when. And, for the record, all WTO meetins are completely closed door meetings - no reporters intide, not even any publicly available records. You wanna se the mythical "Illuminati"? Look at the WTO. > I fail to see > the harm in this. In fact, I can see a great deal of good coming from > it. And how is it right-wing? Right wing - no interference from the government in economic matters. This is what happens. Why pay attention to government when youi could opress people directly? > > Now, NATO is a vast left-wing conspiracy. Witness their currently > scheduled conference on the elimination of small arms all over the > world. They are holding closed door meetings to strategize how to > eliminate personal ownership of firearms worldwide, including the United > States. In complete contravention of our Constitution. This is just one > of a number of ultra-liberal things they're involved in. DO you mean the UN or Nato here? NATO only has presidence over its member nations - hardly nations all over the world. As for the UN, yeah, and they're also talking about a one world government. I, like you, disagree with the elimination of personal ownership of firearms - yes, I support the existence of the NRA, even though I disagree with some of their points, such as the gun-show loop holes. However, the good they do far outweighs the evil they do. If we fight the evil and accept the good - is that not our duty as citizens? Remember, Government belongs to the people and in the end, only the will of the people trully rules - or at least that's the way it's supposed to be. Politicians all over ("right" and "left" wing alike) seem to think that you're more equal than others if your pocket book is big enough (as Cheney displayed in the little Clinton-Like fund raising party for his energy sector friends and lobyists he did this weekend). This is why term-limits are such a good idea, too bad that no-one's been able to fill that promise ("I will support term limits for my 7th term in a row!!" "Me too!" "Me too!"). Unless, of course, you have as many connections as the Bush Dynasty. Then, who cares about term limits!!! You have money and power! > > It escapes me why so many conservatives support the UN. > Because it's the only thing that has stopped the onset of World War 3, and you know it. The League of Nations was the perfect example of this. Culd they have stopped WW2? No, they didn't have the teeth. But they could have certainly had a greater effect had 1) the US supported it and 2) had it had any teeth, any troops. P.S. I picked on the easiest first because it will take a day or so to fully respond to the others. ;) I'll try to keep the books short. Norb _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-slug-politics-track29@homer.mkintl.com Fri May 25 13:59:21 2001 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA29579 for slug-politics-track29; Fri, 25 May 2001 13:59:21 -0400 Received: from cloven.nks.net (cloven.nks.net [192.168.1.252]) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29576 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 13:59:21 -0400 Received: from fl-mta02.durocom.com (fl-mta02.durocom.com [216.53.195.243]) by cloven.nks.net with ESMTP id OAA07216 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 14:06:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mpinet.net ([216.53.218.35]) by fl-mta02.durocom.com with ESMTP id <20010525175919.JBZA6709.fl-mta02@mpinet.net> for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 13:59:19 -0400 Message-ID: <3B0E9C20.79DF8AC6@mpinet.net> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 13:53:36 -0400 From: Smitty <76543a@mpinet.net> Organization: Destroy All Spammers X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.0-4GB i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: slug-politics@nks.net Subject: Re: [SLUG-POL] Re: Far-nutty right et al. References: <000601c0e3ef$24e8cf60$11412041@newcomputer.tampabay.rr.com> <20010523232653.A6580@quillandmouse.com> <3B0C8B3C.900139EC@yahoo.com> <3B0D1DBF.C042B62C@mpinet.net> <3B0DCC3B.46E82D74@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: slug-politics@nks.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: slug-politics@nks.net Norbert Cartagena wrote: > > Smitty wrote: > > > > Norb, > > Frankly, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I suggest > > you read some libertarian authored books (you have no excuse not to as > > you work in a bookstore) before you spew forth political stupidity. > > Limbaugh is a conservative and if you knew anything at all about > > libertarianism, you would not be advertising your ignorance by confusing > > the two. > > Smitty > > > > Actually, I DO know what the fuck I'm talking about. I'm not reffering > to the social aspects of the Liberatarian agenda as opposed to the GOP > agenda. In fact, like Harry Browne, I agree that non-violent drug > offenses shopuld not be criminally prosecuted, though I do believe it > should be treated as the disease it is, like Alcoholism (I don't agree > that we should do away with the military or the education system or > privatize prisions or pull out of the UN and NATO, or allow the rampant > growth of the WTO, unempeeded by those evil environmental and worker > protecting laws that sovereighnties DARE uphold). However, The far nutty > right that I'm talking about is the abusive form of Mills's Liberatarian > philosophy which the far far Republican right (the - as described by > many of its own members - "Liberatarian wing" of the party), in which, > yes, to each their own, but unless it's done responsively it will not > only neccessarily affect others, but rather it will also affect and > impede upon another's freedoms. My example of this is the ecological > attrocities which King George and Dick Cheney (oh, such appropriate > name), are paving the way for with their new legislation (energy). Such > short sightedness and plain-out greed should be prosecuted (c'mon, can > you actually tell me that two Texas oil men don't have their minds more > on their wallets than on the health of the nation when it comes to Oil? > If you believe that, then I have a bridge in Frisco that I'd like to > sell you). It is people like these that support the increase of wealth > of the ultra wealthy, turning a blind eye to the way that future > generations, as well as current ones, are being and will be affected. > Liberatarian philisophy works the same way when applied to government in > that it does not enforce the right of an individual to enjoy complete > freedoms in the case of another more wealthy and powerful individual's > attempt to take that freedom away - for example, the freedom to go to > the beach and be relatively safe, as opposed to swimming in water that > has more industrial pollutants than Houston, due to the government not > taking the freedom to pollute indiscriminantly from a mega-corporation, > such as GE or Exxon. The more powerful in this case has taken the > freedom away from the first individual to both enjoy themselves and the > freedom to have a healthy life if they so choose. > > In short, Liberatarianism works well at the micro level, but fails > miserably at the macro level - it introduces individual freedom without > responsibility. In fact, it is Liberatarians who often argue that Gates > is NOT a monopolist, even though he has OBVIOUSLY taken the freedoms of > others away. Now, you are confusing the Libertarian Party, which is not exactly libertarian, with the political philosophy of libertarianism. They are two different entities. I know, as I was a member for four years and was a county chair for two. There are perhaps more centrists in the LP than libertarians at present, and THEY are the ones who tout Gates as being a persecuted businessman. The philosophy of libertarianism advocates both freedom and responsibility. The lp selectively advocates economic rights at the expense of individual rights. Yes, this is an attribute of the authoritarian right which in your words is far-nutty right, but there it is. There are many libertarians who object to the lp's support of ms. But, bear in mind, the party and the philosophy are different. > This is what I consider the far nutty right. Of course, > here I'm talking about economics, not reffering to the "moral > superiority" of the far-nutty GOP Right (don't get me into that one). > There is a difference in the social aspect, but when it comes to > economics the GOP and Liberatarians are merely examples of someone going > too far and the other saying "it's not far enough!" > > Norb, > > Perfect centrist, but absolute leftist if viewed from the Far Nutty > right. > > (P.S. Paul, as for a vast right-wing conspirracy, what do you call the > WTO?) > > _________________________________________________________ From owner-slug-politics-track29@homer.mkintl.com Sat May 26 14:22:30 2001 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA07095 for slug-politics-track29; Sat, 26 May 2001 14:22:30 -0400 Received: from cloven.nks.net (cloven.nks.net [192.168.1.252]) by homer.mkintl.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07092 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 14:22:30 -0400 Received: from quillandmouse.com (tamqfl1-ar4-076-029.tamqfl1.dsl.gtei.net [4.41.76.29]) by cloven.nks.net with ESMTP id OAA05021 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 14:30:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from paulf by quillandmouse.com with local (Exim 3.16 #1) id 153ikh-0002Rt-00 for slug-politics@nks.net; Sat, 26 May 2001 14:25:27 -0400 Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 14:25:27 -0400 From: Paul M Foster To: slug-politics@nks.net Subject: Re: [SLUG-POL] Re: [SLUG] CTS Radio Commercial Message-ID: <20010526142527.C9362@quillandmouse.com> Mail-Followup-To: slug-politics@nks.net References: <000601c0e3ef$24e8cf60$11412041@newcomputer.tampabay.rr.com> <20010523232653.A6580@quillandmouse.com> <3B0C8B3C.900139EC@yahoo.com> <3B0D1DBF.C042B62C@mpinet.net> <3B0DCC3B.46E82D74@yahoo.com> <20010525001755.C7726@quillandmouse.com> <3B0DE60B.FCCD20E8@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3B0DE60B.FCCD20E8@yahoo.com>; from niccademous@yahoo.com on Fri, May 25, 2001 at 12:56:43AM -0400 Sender: slug-politics@nks.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: slug-politics@nks.net On Fri, May 25, 2001 at 12:56:43AM -0400, Norbert Cartagena wrote: > Paul M Foster wrote: > > > > On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 11:06:35PM -0400, Norbert Cartagena wrote: > > > > > > > > > (P.S. Paul, as for a vast right-wing conspirracy, what do you call the > > > WTO?) > > > > I don't actually know that much about the WTO. I presume their purpose > > is to promote trade across traditional trade barriers. > > Yes, that is their stated purpose, but you fail to see AT WHAT COST this > is accoplished. These, my friend, are the people who have FORCED us to > cahnge many of our environmental laws as well as our worker laws in > order to create a more "competitive" environment for multi-national > corporations. They force countries to change even their constitutions, > threatening forced economic retaliation if they don't, in order to > plaease their multi-national corporate masters. A body of nopn-electred > officials imposing their will on sovereign nations under the threat of > economnic sanctions forced unto their other members (a good example is > how ther WTO forced us to put sacntions on India because it was in their > constitution to not allow companies to pattent life - ie. pattented > bio-engineered organisms which, iunder Indian law, had no validity > because, to them no form of life can be pettented. In order to lift > sanctions they had to allow Monsanto, the multinational chemical > company, to have a pattent on life, which they consider holy and > unppattentable). Yeah, the WTO promotes trade, but who comes out > winning? The multinationsal that own it, not the citizens of the country > they're supposed to help. Remeber those nice dolphin laws we used to > have to protect dolphins from getting caught in tuna-nets? Well, im > order to allow other countired to "fairly" sell tuna in the US, we HAD > to lift those laws!!! Laws we voted on and passed as a sovereignty!!!! > Granted, many Tuna companies are still Dolphin safe (so they claim), but > many others are not! The point is that out sovereignty as a nation was > violated! And this is the result of Capitalism run amok (yeah, > capitalism is good, but letting it run free is NOT a good idea). Yeah, > the market will sort itself out -- into 8 or so mega corporations that > will implant chips on your butt to know what you do with who and when. > And, for the record, all WTO meetins are completely closed door meetings > - no reporters intide, not even any publicly available records. You > wanna se the mythical "Illuminati"? Look at the WTO. > I can't argue this very well, since I have only your description of these things. Of course, I'm not particularly dolphin-friendly myself. > > I fail to see > > the harm in this. In fact, I can see a great deal of good coming from > > it. And how is it right-wing? > > Right wing - no interference from the government in economic matters. > This is what happens. Why pay attention to government when youi could > opress people directly? In general, though, leaving business alone is a good thing. > > > > Now, NATO is a vast left-wing conspiracy. Witness their currently > > scheduled conference on the elimination of small arms all over the > > world. They are holding closed door meetings to strategize how to > > eliminate personal ownership of firearms worldwide, including the United > > States. In complete contravention of our Constitution. This is just one > > of a number of ultra-liberal things they're involved in. > Argh. Yes, I meant UN. > DO you mean the UN or Nato here? NATO only has presidence over its > member nations - hardly nations all over the world. As for the UN, yeah, > and they're also talking about a one world government. I, like you, > disagree with the elimination of personal ownership of firearms - yes, I > support the existence of the NRA, even though I disagree with some of > their points, such as the gun-show loop holes. However, the good they do > far outweighs the evil they do. If we fight the evil and accept the good > - is that not our duty as citizens? Remember, Government belongs to the > people and in the end, only the will of the people trully rules - or at > least that's the way it's supposed to be. Politicians all over ("right" > and "left" wing alike) seem to think that you're more equal than others > if your pocket book is big enough (as Cheney displayed in the little > Clinton-Like fund raising party for his energy sector friends and > lobyists he did this weekend). Clinton sold the Lincoln bedroom and sold the US out to anyone and everyone. Hardly comparable to Cheney. > This is why term-limits are such a good > idea, too bad that no-one's been able to fill that promise ("I will > support term limits for my 7th term in a row!!" "Me too!" "Me too!"). Agreed. I think "career politicians" is against what the Founding Fathers intended. > Unless, of course, you have as many connections as the Bush Dynasty. > Then, who cares about term limits!!! You have money and power! > Puhleeze. You're not even rational on this subject. Bush has some honor, which is more than I can say for anything connected to the Clintons. And a reminder: Bush Sr. was a one-term president, Bush Jr. was a term-and-a-half governor, and Jeb has only been in office less than a full term. I don't think any of your statements about the Bushes and Cheney are grounded in any facts at all. I think it's just your left-wing bias. You just automatically dislike these guys. Cheney's probably the most intelligent, erudite person to occupy the pres/vp slot in a hundred years. You probably don't like Reagan, either. Ugh. > > > > It escapes me why so many conservatives support the UN. > > > > Because it's the only thing that has stopped the onset of World War 3, > and you know it. The League of Nations was the perfect example of this. > Culd they have stopped WW2? No, they didn't have the teeth. But they > could have certainly had a greater effect had 1) the US supported it and > 2) had it had any teeth, any troops. > I don't know any such thing, and such a claim is ludicrous. The US and USSR prevented WWIII by knowing what devastation would occur should they spark it. I don't favor any international body "preventing" wars. If two states want to go to war, let them. It's not up to us or anyone else to stop it. We can try to mediate, and we can step in if our national interests are at risk. Yes, the US, by virtue of its power, gets to be the bully of the world. Fine by me. We earned the right to push the world around. And despite what the rest of the world _says_ we are more benevolent than any of the rest of the world would be in our position. I used to think it was unfair of the US to unduly influence the rest of the world in favor of democracy, etc. But I recently realized that it was in the best interest of the world to do what we do. Paul