>>If you cannot see how peoples values are going down, and that that means
society is slowly going with it, then I'm sorry.
I can see how some are going down, but I also see some that are improving.
Just not sure of the ratio. Again, how do you measure such a thing? This
question goes unanswered.
>> There are lots of records as to how things were. Personally I don't need
100's of years to tell. I see it about every 10 years how things are going
down hill.
I suggest that there are actually few records of everyday life. 200 years
ago, very few people could read and write. Those educated few who could
were unlikely to be an accurate sample of the common man.
I did said it was a common to claim values are going down, and I questioned
how such a thing could be accurately measured. But most people focus on the
negative, causing things to appear to be worse.
Many people talk about crime going up, but Justice Dept stats say crime is
going down. Exposure is surely up, since the media plays it up.
I guess all I'm saying is we should be careful about perpetuating this
belief, when we actually lack the data. Even with the data, how do we
measure, and against what standard?
Ken Elliott
=====================
-----Original Message-----
From: slug@nks.net [mailto:slug@nks.net] On Behalf Of steve szmidt
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 6:41 PM
To: slug@nks.net
Subject: Re: [SLUG] Politics, ethics etc.
On Sunday 20 November 2005 17:42, Ken Elliott wrote:
> SS >> One hundred years ago man was far more kinder to man.
>
> RM >> my wife is black and might disagree with you about how RM >>
> wonderful things were 100 years ago.
>
> RM >> Public hangings were common -- and not just for blacks.
> RM >> People starved to death in this country.
> ...
>
> And that was my point. Some things are worse and some things are better.
>
> How do you go about measuring such a thing? One man's experience
> might be better - another's worse. And none of us were alive over 200
> years ago, so there's actually very little data to base an opinion.
Oh, but this is not an accurate statement. There are lots of records as to
how things were. Personally I don't need 100's of years to tell. I see it
about every 10 years how things are going down hill. A bit here a bit there.
Started with busses. I noticed that busses were getting better with each new
version. Then all of a sudden they were not getting any better but they were
still changing them. So they started getting worse. This was in the late
60's.
> Like the weather, it changes all the time, but the average changes little.
>
> Ken Elliott
It's an interesting fact (which does not make any later behavior OK) but
blacks actually used to be slave drivers watching over white slaves a few
hundred years back in the mid east. You could say that averages, but it does
not help anyone. People needs to be enlightened to get out of the rat race.
When a gangmember states that he's only taking what is his by birthright,
you know society has failed that young man.
If you cannot see how peoples values are going down, and that that means
society is slowly going with it, then I'm sorry. Does not stop the downward
spiral, unfortunately. The question is how long will it sustain? What will
occur in the meantime? Will this or another society raise and save the day?
Or are we going to see lots of confusion and disorder first?
This kind if stuff makes me unhappy, so I do what I can to try to stop the
decline. But that's another, even less computer related story.
BTW, I'm appalled over human right violations in any and all situations. I
stand up and fight for equal justice under the law. To pull man out of the
dark ages will be a tough job but I think it can be done.
As long as the only justice known is punishment, society is doomed. What
creates a criminal is disassociation from society. It usually starts
happening in school because they cannot keep up, and start to disconnect.
The urge to succeed is too strong to die with the hope of being part of
society however, so they create their own society. Which is very stone age
as the members are almost totally without any useful education.
At the same time I have recovered gang members in Los Angeles simply by
showing them that they indeed could contribute to society. Not that that was
easy, but it is doable.
In our current prison system people are systematically and effectively
degraded. Well, guess what! Without his self respect man is not going to
raise above it all.
I brought this up because these are to me obvious points where society needs
to change. Yeah, whatever we agree on, we probably can mostly agree that
something needs to be done about it.
--Steve Szmidt
"They that would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This list is provided as an unmoderated internet service by Networked Knowledge Systems (NKS). Views and opinions expressed in messages posted are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of NKS or any of its employees.
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