Paul M Foster wrote:
> I don't think I can really argue this. I don't have enough information.
> But I suspect that the 50% figure is exaggerated.
I'm quoting from the IEEE reports before Congress in 1999 and 2000.
The new, supposed "foolproof" H1-B increases are still being
abused. It has been proven time and time again.
The IEEE is for green cards and the abolishment of the Visa system.
The IEEE is arguing between the protectionalist Republicans and the
emotion-driven Democrats, neither of which are listening! The IEEE
is the world's largest technical organization, who is doing their
damnest to try to "educate" people on the differences between
technology and engineering. Again, few stop to listen.
> Not true at all. What makes America great is primarily its productivity.
> Our freedoms and abundant natural resources augment that productivity.
> Yes, we do gain from an influx of new ideas and talent.
More than you realize. In my field, engineering, foreigners make up
a crapload of new talent. These people come to the US, already
speak english, teach their children only english, demand the same
wages as Americans and are very, very principled people. Those who
are on the Visa system get stuck at the same job and half the pay if
their employer abuses them.
HP and several other firms have been caught using the H1-B Visa
system to fire Americans and hire foreigners. That's not what it is
designed to do, but that is what is happening.
Again, the IEEE's own US chapter says "let foreigners in with Green
cards" so they can't be abused by American employers. Unlike many
other fields, engineering is a fairly well accredited program
internationally. We know what graduates from what schools are good
and which aren't.
> Wow, that's not true. You're exaggerating.
California has almost a million illegals on social services. And
I'm not talking just basic medical or food stamps, I'm talking
welfare! It is currently estimated that 3 million illegals are in
the US receiving major social services.
Worse yet, they can get driver's licenses and voter registration
cards. And you gives them to them??? The same people who they vote
in to give them more social services. Very, very sad.
> There are tons of intelligent foreigners in our major universities.
Yes there are. And many of them, both citizens and green card
holders, are excellent. I had several in college and have worked
with several in my professional career. I've also seen people
holding H1-B Visa and kissing the ground that they found an employer
who didn't abuse them. They've also been detained on several
occassions for no good reason.
> And I think the percentage of "shiftless" aliens is low.
Really?
> And I think learning English _should_ be a requirement.
Actually, I don't. The US has no official religion nor should it
ever. But people should desire to speak the language. The point
I'm making is that we are turning away people who have accredited
engineering degrees and speak English, but giving out welfare to
those who refuse to speak English.
God knows I almost started cursing out a hispanic woman who was the
assistant director of the Financial Aid office at UCF for insulting
my wife in Spannish because she was frustrated that she couldn't
follow my wife's English. It's one thing to get frustrated with a
language, it's another to curse at someone in your native language
while _you_ are a guest in a foreign land.
Let the people in that _respect_ what this country stands for.
> There's a rule that says you have to wait 8-15 years? I don't think so.
> It depends on how bad you want to be a citizen.
I know several dude. All engineers.
> Sometimes it is dead wrong. But most of the time, it's not. Which is why
> it is used. And conclusions based on profiles are necessarily tentative.
I'm going to lose that discussion simply because you'all haven't
seen what I've seen.
> Okay, you've cited one case. Yes, I'm sure there are other examples of
> profiling abuse. But again, that doesn't mean the method is inherently
> flawed.
I personally know another woman who was knocked on her @$$ and
arrested for a crime she didn't commit. Worse yet, the newspaper
reported she fought back when she didn't.
Unfortunately for the police, she was the _head_ of the probation
department. I wouldn't want to be the officier who arrester her,
nor the reporter for the paper when my supervisor came knocking!
> Compare magnitudes.
Compare incidents. I'm not trying to discredit the 9/11 incident,
I'm just concerned about people failing to realize how peace-loving
the _great_majority_ of Arab nations and those of the Islamic faith
are. Again, the Taliban _stands_alone_ and have _never_ represented
anything _remotely_ like other divisions of major Islamic movements,
even Irans!
> Okay... and what European countries support global terrorism?
France.
Heck, you have more to fear from China and North Korea when it comes
to terrorist financing than the Middle East as a whole!
> Skip Northern Ireland. Their terrorism isn't generally global, and if they
> want to blow each other up, let England sort it out.
That's what I'm talking about! You dismiss Christians fighting, but
Islams, oh no!
> Okay. How many international terrorist groups are there? How many
> members in all? For each of those members, how many friends and family
> members do they have? Compared to the millions who live in Arab
> countries, yes it's a small percentage. But that's irrelevant. The
> point, again, is that it is up to these people to police their own
> family and friends. If they fail to, then you get the inevitable third
> party which has to clean things up.
Dude, I think I'll never get you to understand the point I'm trying
to make.
> Stats? Reason with me, here. If Mohammed Booboo joins El Quaida, the ten
> other members of his family likely know it, right? If any one of them
> turned Mohammed in and he was arrested, we would have one less
> terrorist, right?
How many actually see him?
> Okay, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe for every hundred
> terrorists, a thousand get turned in by family and friends, and
> arrested. But I doubt it.
Please do not make such statements like "But I doubt it" unless you
know! Geez! Listen to yourself!
> I doubt that. My view is that most people in any country (including this
> one) simply want to live their lives and be left alone. They don't want
> to fight with people and they don't want their lives intruded upon by
> their government. I'm sure most Arabs feel the same way. However, I
> disagree that they would generally rebuke someone for joining a
> terrorist cell. I don't necessarily think they would encourage them
> either.
You'd be quite surprised! You're assumptions are so off the mark.
But I'm finding that to be _very_typical_ of Americans these days!
I'm ashamed!
> In answer to your specific question, yes. Who elected these yoyos in
> Washington? If we aren't responsible for the idiotic (or intelligent)
> things they do, who is? The French?
You should read Plato's Republic. This country is getting to the
point where Americans want their lives dictated to them, and vote
for personal gain. The middle class cannot hold this up any more.
> Obviously that's not true, since some Arab governments harbor
> terrorists.
So do the French! So does the US! Com'mon now!
> _Who_ can't distinguish? People _ignore_ things which are right in front
> of them. And academia is the absolute worst institution in America for
> knowingly allowing subversives within its ranks.
And what I'm saying is sometimes, _no_one_even_suspects_!!!
> As far as I know, the Israelis do follow a code of conduct. And I don't
> know what about any Arab code of conduct makes it superior to that
> followed by the Israelis.
And what I'm saying is that some Arab states follow a code of
conduct that is better than the Israelis. And because we support
the Israelis with "no questions asked," attitudes will only prevail.
> Sorry, I have to sympathize with Israel. Every single country for
> thousands of miles around them hates them, and so far as I can tell,
Israel didn't exist before 1949! Why did the Brits plunk them right
smack dab in the middle of what could only lead to a holy war?!?!?!
> they mostly react to the psychotic attacks of Arabs
Yes, on Israel day 1, every Arab nation declared war on them. But,
again, after the mid-70s, I haven't seen too many Arab countries
doing anything so active.
> and Palestinians.
The Israelis deplaced the Palestinians! How would you like to be
moved to Mexico???
> Quite effectively, I might add.
Dude, the state of Israel, by its very inception, caused 99% of the
problems they have. I know the Jews needed a homeland, but why oh
why was it put smack dab in the middle of Palestine???
> According to what I've read, most of the Afghans are illiterate.
So is 4% of America! That's horrendous!
> Likewise, Palestine operates thousands of terrorist indoctrination
> centers where followers (most illiterate) learn some normal academic
> subjects, along with a heavy dose of Israel-hate and distorted Koran.
I think Americans forced to live in Mexico would take the same
attitude. And even still, the great majority of Palestinians still
live pacifly.
> The fact is that no sane population will follow psychos. One of the
> first steps in making a population more sane is giving them a good
> education.
Again, I think you fail to realize that it is only a portion of the
population. Yes, a great larger precentage that in Arab nations,
but do you really blame them???
> Never said it. However, the Taliban does control the government in
> Afghanistan, and does harbor and encourage terrorism. I've heard that
> Osama funds these folks, which may or may not be true.
Then talk about the Taliban, not Arabs. It's like calling all
Christians Mormons**!
> I disagree. From what I've read, the Arab countries of the coalition
> only would agree to the liberation of Kuwait, not the bringing to
> justice of Saddam.
Again, that is only part of the reason. But I have to agree with
their rationale. The _main_reason_ why we didn't go in and get him
was because it would have taken a long, exhaustive effort to do so.
> There is no double standard here, and this is in fact the lesson of
> history. If _you_ fail to handle the ethics of your fellows, eventually
> someone else will step in and handle the matter, usually in a much more
> bloody way. It's not even a questionable point; it's a fact of history.
I'm telling you most people can't do a damn thing about other
people, no matter how hard they try.
> The ethics of a group are the responsibility of that group. To ignore
> the ethical mistakes of your fellows only seals your own fate.
Again, in the case of the Taliban, I agree. In the case of Arabs,
we'll I guess all Christians are Mormons** them, eh???
-- TheBS
**Note: That is not to say anything negative about Mormons. I'm
comparing percentages here.
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org chat:thebs413 Engineer AbsoluteValue Systems, Inc. http://www.linux-wlan.org President SmithConcepts, Inc. http://www.SmithConcepts.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Those living in the US who consider the American flag to be a sym- bol of oppression obviously fail to understand what the word means
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