On Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 03:58:00PM -0400, Bryan-TheBS-Smith wrote:
> Paul M Foster wrote:
<snip>
> > And I think the percentage of "shiftless" aliens is low.
>
> Really?
>
You're implying it's not low? Now _that's_ profiling. Oh wait, you're
basing this on statistics? Well, I guess it couldn't be profiling then.
;-}
> > And I think learning English _should_ be a requirement.
>
> Actually, I don't. The US has no official religion nor should it
> ever.
<snip>
Religion != language. If people want to speak Farsi or French, fine. But
I want my road signs, my schools, and my ballots in English.
<snip>
> Compare incidents. I'm not trying to discredit the 9/11 incident,
> I'm just concerned about people failing to realize how peace-loving
> the _great_majority_ of Arab nations and those of the Islamic faith
> are. Again, the Taliban _stands_alone_ and have _never_ represented
> anything _remotely_ like other divisions of major Islamic movements,
> even Irans!
>
I made this point earlier; most people everywhere just want to live
their lives without interference, not fight people. I know the Taliban
are psychos; I think most people know that. I also know (like most other
people) that Arabs are not psychos.
> > Okay... and what European countries support global terrorism?
>
> France.
>
I musta missed that article in the paper.
> Heck, you have more to fear from China and North Korea when it comes
> to terrorist financing than the Middle East as a whole!
>
I musta missed that article, too.
> > Skip Northern Ireland. Their terrorism isn't generally global, and if they
> > want to blow each other up, let England sort it out.
>
> That's what I'm talking about! You dismiss Christians fighting, but
> Islams, oh no!
>
_International_ terrorism. The Palestinians commit terrorist acts
against the Israelis as well. It's local, not international.
> > Okay. How many international terrorist groups are there? How many
> > members in all? For each of those members, how many friends and family
> > members do they have? Compared to the millions who live in Arab
> > countries, yes it's a small percentage. But that's irrelevant. The
> > point, again, is that it is up to these people to police their own
> > family and friends. If they fail to, then you get the inevitable third
> > party which has to clean things up.
>
> Dude, I think I'll never get you to understand the point I'm trying
> to make.
>
I probably do understand it. I just don't remember it. ;-} And I doubt
I'd agree.
> > Stats? Reason with me, here. If Mohammed Booboo joins El Quaida, the ten
> > other members of his family likely know it, right? If any one of them
> > turned Mohammed in and he was arrested, we would have one less
> > terrorist, right?
>
> How many actually see him?
>
C'mon. His family and friends can't be _that_ unaware.
> > Okay, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe for every hundred
> > terrorists, a thousand get turned in by family and friends, and
> > arrested. But I doubt it.
>
> Please do not make such statements like "But I doubt it" unless you
> know! Geez! Listen to yourself!
>
If I knew, I'd say precisely that. Since I don't, I can only say, "I
doubt it."
> > I doubt that. My view is that most people in any country (including this
> > one) simply want to live their lives and be left alone. They don't want
> > to fight with people and they don't want their lives intruded upon by
> > their government. I'm sure most Arabs feel the same way. However, I
> > disagree that they would generally rebuke someone for joining a
> > terrorist cell. I don't necessarily think they would encourage them
> > either.
>
> You'd be quite surprised! You're assumptions are so off the mark.
> But I'm finding that to be _very_typical_ of Americans these days!
> I'm ashamed!
>
Great. So Arabs generally rebuke those of their number who join
terrorist cells. Do they bother to also turn them in to the authorities?
> > In answer to your specific question, yes. Who elected these yoyos in
> > Washington? If we aren't responsible for the idiotic (or intelligent)
> > things they do, who is? The French?
>
> You should read Plato's Republic. This country is getting to the
> point where Americans want their lives dictated to them, and vote
> for personal gain. The middle class cannot hold this up any more.
>
I agree, but we're still ultimately responsible for the actions of our
government.
> > Obviously that's not true, since some Arab governments harbor
> > terrorists.
>
> So do the French! So does the US! Com'mon now!
>
Wow. We harbor terrorists? You'll do us all a big favor by turning them
in to the authorities. Of give me their names. I'll turn 'em in.
> > _Who_ can't distinguish? People _ignore_ things which are right in front
> > of them. And academia is the absolute worst institution in America for
> > knowingly allowing subversives within its ranks.
>
> And what I'm saying is sometimes, _no_one_even_suspects_!!!
>
Maybe, but... wait for it... I doubt it! ;-}
> > As far as I know, the Israelis do follow a code of conduct. And I don't
> > know what about any Arab code of conduct makes it superior to that
> > followed by the Israelis.
>
> And what I'm saying is that some Arab states follow a code of
> conduct that is better than the Israelis.
Better how?
<snip>
> The Israelis deplaced the Palestinians! How would you like to be
> moved to Mexico???
>
Well, I can't argue that. The Israelis did capture or were given a plot
of formerly Arab land. My view: Arabs, it's been decades; get over it.
Or be prepared to wipe Israeli off the face of the earth. If you really
hate them and want them gone, remove them. You've got plenty enough
firepower in the whole of the Arab countries to commit genocide on the
Israelis. And yet, they haven't done it. This is part of the reason that
I'm pretty sure that Israel really has little to do with this. Israel's
just a convenient foe. If not for Israel, they would find something else
to fight over.
> > Quite effectively, I might add.
>
> Dude, the state of Israel, by its very inception, caused 99% of the
> problems they have. I know the Jews needed a homeland, but why oh
> why was it put smack dab in the middle of Palestine???
>
Duh. That's where Israel's holy stuff is too. Where else would you put
them? Canada?
> > According to what I've read, most of the Afghans are illiterate.
>
> So is 4% of America! That's horrendous!
>
Think again. Illiteracy in this country is far far more than 4%.
<snip>
> > The fact is that no sane population will follow psychos. One of the
> > first steps in making a population more sane is giving them a good
> > education.
>
> Again, I think you fail to realize that it is only a portion of the
> population. Yes, a great larger precentage that in Arab nations,
> but do you really blame them???
>
Okay okay okay okay. All Arabs are not terrorists. All Arab countries do
not support terrorism. And, being pessimistic, let's say that only 0.1%
of the population in Arab countries are actually terrorists. And let's
say that the people who know of and ignore or protect these people and
activities comprise another 0.9%. So let's say that 1% of the population
of Arab countries is either involved in terrorism or condones/allows it.
What is your point? Yes, I blame these people. No, I don't blame all
Arabs. Again, what is your point? Should we all hold hands and sing
Kumbaya?
<snip>
> I'm telling you most people can't do a damn thing about other
> people, no matter how hard they try.
>
_THERE'S_ the root of the problem, right there. You can't do anything
about other people, so you simply have to let them do whatever they
like, unhindered.
This is utter, complete and total nonsense. Dangerous nonsense. It's the
reason why this country is in the moral and ethical decline it's been in
for the last 50-100 years.
Let me say this again. Any group (cub scouts, family, country) has a set
of rules about what is and isn't right. This is true whether they
publically acknowledge it or not. In order to have an orderly and
expanding and prosperous group, those rules must be adhered to. ("Don't
talk to Mommy before she's had her coffee." "A cub scout never leaves
another cub scout in danger.") It is up to the members of the group to
enforce those rules. They don't magically get enforced. The members of
the group are responsible for the actions of the group and its members.
Such enforcement may include ejecting a member for violating the rules.
It may include (in the case of a wayward child, for instance) spanking.
But no matter what, the group must enforce its rules if it wishes to
survive. There's no manual on how they do this, and each group chooses
its own method for meting out justice amongst its members. If the group
fails to do this, one or both of two things will happen. First, the
group will fade and die. And it's often years before anyone realizes
it's happened. And/or second, someone else will step in and enforce
rules on the group.
As a society, we have lost the ability to enforce our rules on the
people around us. We worry about people's "self-esteem" while evil
people break, bend and shatter the rules that make a decent society. As
a result, we've given over the power to enforce our rules to the
government, which is at the mercy of whatever whim the reigning
political party invents.
Don't believe me? Check history. It's littered with the corpses of
countless empires, civilizations and societies which are no longer with
us because the ethical heart of those entities died as their populations
looked on, unwilling to stop the destruction from the inside.
Paul
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