On 2/3/07, Ken Elliott <kelliott11@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >> If they did there would be optimized opengl cards instead of
> optimized
> direct x cards ( With the notable workstation exceptions of the ATI FireGL
> and the Nvidia Quadro series of cards )
>
> Those game cards also support OpenGL. There are actually more OpenGL
> cards
> than DirectX 10 cards.
Well There is only a handful of DX10 graphics cards because DX10 is for
vista only... A mistake on Microsoft part. But considering its launch was
only a few days ago I did not expect to see a huge outpouring of cards right
away. But now compare it to say DirectX 9 cards and it so lopsided it is
not funny. I would be surprised if you showed me a consumer grade opengl
card. Not a workstation card card from ATI or NVIDA or Matrox or S3.... But
a Optimized OpenGL card that I can go down to best buy and pick up right
now.
>> This is unfortnately another example of people crying foul way after
> the fact.
>
> No, the CAD industry have been complaining to MS about this for over a
> year.
No I was reffering to people complaining about DirectX long after it had
the market. The consordium of companies that approve the opengl
specfications allowed MS to take off and run with DirectX and let it become
the defacto standard. Now that MS has decided that OpenGL was qoute on
qoute Useless they dumped it on top of DX10.
>> This was another area that other people let Microsoft take control over
> of. Part of the reason is the slow moving process of adding new features
> to
> opengl, while directx development progresses.
>
> OpenGL has been a stable and mature technology for a decade, thanks to
> Silicon Graphics. It was DirectX that has been trying to catch up to
> OpenGL. MS adopted OpenGL in the early days of NT to encourage Unix-based
> CAD programs to port to NT. Now that this has been done, MS is
> backstabbing
> the industry, and they don't like it one bit. Several have told me that
> there is no way they will port, and their customers will stick to XP
> rather
> than use Vista. There is a _lot_ of talk of it being easier to port to
> Linux and Mac, rather than convert to DirectX. Let's see who blinks
> first.
A why are they even using XP. I find XP to be over bloated and pointless.
Why would they want to upgrade to vista in the first place.
This is how I see it people dont upgrade to vista, in a bold move in sp1 MS
removes the opengl emulation from directx and puts opengl back on its own.
Everyone is happy.
The general rule of business is that you stay one version behind MS to keep
from having to face these issues. It will be fix.or 3d card companies will
leave some people will whine others wont.
>> While I know and have seen this CAD program velum before this article
> from the 10 or so people I know who use CAD only one uses velum. Autodesk
> is the 900 pound gorilla. And while I hate installing Autocad and going
> through the ms like activation hoops that is what everyone just uses
>
> AutoCAD does not use OpenGL and is not affected by this. It is all the
> higher end 3D CAD programs, like Solidworks, SolidEdge, CATIA,
> ProEngineer,
> Unigraphics, Alibre, IronCAD, Think3, Rhino, and so on. 2D programs have
> no
> use for OpenGL, only solid modelers and other such 3D programs are
> affected,
> but this is the stuff that lies at the cutting edge. AutoCAD is old
> stuff,
> and 3D modelers like Solidworks are growing like wildfire. My
> Solidworks/FEA machine is a quad Xeon with 16GB of RAM, if that gives you
> any idea of the level of power we are talking about. At this level, the
> application dictates what OS is used. MS worked hard to get into this
> market and could easily lose it. This is where all the 64-bit action is
> happening.
Yes I got to play with Solidworks for a while, for some reason I got on
there mailing list and kept snail mail spaming me with aol type trial disk
I know what kind of power your talking about I tried it out on an IBM
workstation I picked up for a song a while ago dual 2.0ghz xeons 4 gigs of
RDRAM 1600 3 10000 rpm 36 scsi 3 drives in striped array. ATI FireGL
card. It ran and it ran ok but you could tell when it was rendering the
emense input lag there is. Which still brings me to my first question why
is anyone using vista in the first place.
I'll be visiting the Dassault and Solidworks folks this week. This is one
> of the topics we will be discussing.
>
> Ken Elliott
>
> =====================
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: slug@nks.net [mailto:slug@nks.net] On Behalf Of Robert Snyder
> Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 10:57 PM
> To: slug@nks.net
> Subject: Re: [SLUG] Vista runs CAD almost 10X slower
>
>
>
>
> On 2/3/07, Rich Morgan <rmorgan@heavysystems.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, February 3, 2007 6:24 pm, Paul M Foster wrote:
> > Ken Elliott wrote:
> >> http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/01/29/xp-vs-vista/page7.html
> >>
> >> Background - MS put the OpenGL interface on top of DirectX in
> Vista.
> >> OpenGL
> >> is a 3D graphics standard, developed by Silicon Graphics, and
> supported
> >> by
> >> the Apple Mac, Linux and NT/W2K/XP. Looks like they made a big
> boo boo
> >> on
> >> this one. Ashlar is claiming that they will move their CAD
> package
> >> (Velum)
> >> to Linux.
> >>
> >>
> >> Ken Elliott
> >>
> >
> > This may not be a misstep on Microsoft's part (assuming MS
> doesn't
> care
> > about this CAD package). They have a habit of forcing others to
> use
> > their technology (DirectX) by making it painful not to.
> >
> > Paul
>
> I'll be interested to see how some of the larger game dev shops
> handle
> this. Id Software is a big proponent of OpenGL and they have a lot
> of
> weight in the industry. Microsoft may find itself without a viable
> PC
> platform for games if they're not careful.
>
>
> Id are two faced monkies. They are apposed to directx in there pr but
> they
> make directx optimized games. They said they would support project
> rhapsody
> with id games yet id has only a very small selection on non stellar titles
> for OSX ( orginal code base for OSX was project rhapsody) id comment to
> apple and rhapsody was outline in Boot magizine with McCormick being
> interviewed by ex - ms direct x spin doctor Alex Saint John.
>
> I dont see game companies throwing there wieght behind opengl. If they
> did
> there would be optimized opengl cards instead of optimized direct x cards
> (
> With the notable workstation exceptions of the ATI FireGL and the Nvidia
> Quadro series of cards )
>
> This is unfortnately another example of people crying foul way after the
> fact. This was another area that other people let Microsoft take control
> over of. Part of the reason is the slow moving process of adding new
> features to opengl, while directx development progresses. Now that MS won
> the gaming api war they have control over what people buy. If they want
> to
> play a directx 10 optimized game then there forced to buy Vista.
>
> While I know and have seen this CAD program velum before this article from
> the 10 or so people I know who use CAD only one uses velum. Autodesk is
> the
> 900 pound gorilla. And while I hate installing Autocad and going through
> the ms like activation hoops that is what everyone just uses.
>
> My question is to them why linux now and not linux 2 years ago. They only
> want to move do to ms crippling opengl support ( which will probably be
> fixed eventually ) but it seems like to me as nothing more than a
> marketing
> ploy.
>
>
> v/r,
> Rich Morgan
> OpenAddict.com
>
>
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