On Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:55:42PM -0400, Bryan-TheBS-Smith wrote:
> Paul M Foster wrote:
> > My view is that if you want the rights and privileges
> > afforded citizens, learn the language and salute the flag.
>
> The problem is that the immigration laws of this country are so
> screwed up right now, good people can't get in.
>
You probably know more about this than I do. I don't know in what way
they're screwed up.
> > but I think that lessening the flow of people across our borders
> > is a wise thing.
>
> So we just stop the ones we know of, eh? There are still hundreds
> of thousands of illegals who get in every year.
>
And the point is? We can't stop them all, so don't try?
> > America exists for the benefit of Americans, not foreigners.
>
> But what are Americans??? Former foreigners!
>
That's not really an argument, just rhetoric. Foreigners are welcome to
apply for citizenship.
> > Really, though, this gets into the issue of profiling. I believe in
> > profiling. Police and the FBI can't really do their jobs without
> > profiling. It's difficult to track serial killers without profiling. The
> > only people who bitch about profiling are people who are the "victims"
> > of it. And those people, as a group, are the ones who commit the most
> > crimes. Which is the reason why they are profiled in the first place.
>
> The problem is that it quickly boils down to people not being able
> to tell the difference between profiling and complete annoyance. If
> the history of profiling has told us anything, it is a ripe avenue
> for bigotry and unfair treatment of people.
>
Examples? I believe profiling has assisted us in catching quite a number
of criminals. That's why the FBI invests so heavily in it.
> As far as "those people, as a group, are the ones who commit the
> most crimes," you might need to take a lesson in history on why.
>
The why is completely irrelevent. If you want to publish books on
sociology, investigate the why. Otherwise, you only need to know the
stats themselves. Besides which, most of the reasons why I've heard are
completely without foundation.
> > By all means, track Arabs coming into this country.
>
> Why stop at Arabs? Com'mon dude.
Do Mexicans or Canadians commit an overwhelming number of crimes in this
country? Frenchmen, Brits, Germans? And neither do Arabs, but some of
them have committed some pretty heinous crimes within our borders.
>
> > Arabs may complain, but it should be noted that for thousands of years
> > the Arabs have fought amongst themselves, and now export terrorism
> > globally.
>
> I see a _lot_ of people exporting terrorism. Heck, I see a lot
> domestically! Not many are Arabs.
>
Gosh, there must be a lot of terrorism going on domestically that I
don't know of. Let's see, there's Oklahoma City, and the Unabomber. What
else?
> Saying Arabs support terrorism is like saying Christians kill
> abortion doctors.
>
I didn't say Arabs as a culture/race support terrorism. But let's
compare. Of all the Arab countries, how man support terrorism? Now, of
all the European countries, how many support terrorism? But that's not
even the point, which you missed. If your brother goes and joins Hamas,
you know it, right? And what do you do? Ignore it, or turn him in? If
you ignore it (as obviously most of the families in Arab countries do),
then you are condoning and encouraging this terrorism. Eventually,
your brother is going to fly a plane into a large building and call the
wrath of a large and powerful country down upon you. The point is, the
ethics of a community-- any community-- are the responsibility of the
members of that community to enforce. When the members of a community
fail to enforce the ethics on that community, then it falls to others to
use justice to enforce ethics.
> > It is within the power of Arab states and Arab populations to
> > eliminate this type of behavior.
>
> Same thing with us and abortion doctor killing Christians.
You are correct. There is no excuse for this behavior, and those who
knew of and ignored it are guilty as well.
>
> > But they have chosen not to.
>
> Bull! Some have been ignorant in their decisions, but so have we in
> many areas. You are making a complex issue into a simple black and
> white one it is not.
>
Shall I mention a certain European country which waged war on half the
world 60 years ago? It's been said that the population of that country
didn't really know what was going on, either. Yet Mein Kampf was a
bestseller in that country. Arab nations know, and so do the people
within them.
> Besides, the nation of Israel needs to stop creating some of it as
> well.
>
You've been listening to too much Arab propaganda. None of this is truly
about Israel. This is about men who crave power and manipulate ignorant
populations to get it. Israel is simply a convenient target. If it
didn't exist, these people would find another target, since doing so
galvanizes their followers.
> > Now, their populations suffer because of it. So be it.
>
> No, *NOT* so be it! Don't be so ignorant.
Then why are we bombing an Arab country? For the fun of it? They have
knowingly exported terrorism to this country, and now we bomb them.
Cause. Effect. Seems fairly simple to me. Seems pretty simple to the
government as well.
>
> > I am not against Arabs or Islam in any way. But these countries and
> > regimes have allowed this behavior to flourish, and even encouraged it.
>
> And we have not done the same in other regards???
>
Examples? I'm sorry, but I don't recall that last time we flew a
civilian plane into a skyscraper.
> > The time to atone for this sin is upon them. All these countries have
> > families whose members have gone off to learn terrorism.
>
> Oh get off it. The percentage is so small dude.
>
And the damage so extensive. The percentage doesn't matter. The people
who knew of this and let it go are as responsible as those who committed
the acts. No, of course it isn't all Arabs, nor probably _all_ Arab
countries.
> > But the families have chosen to stand by and do nothing. Rather than
> > turn their own family members in, they have remained silent. And
> > their governments have been willing accomplices.
>
> Don't lump all governments and organizations of the Islamic faith
> into the same category as the Taliban. Allah knows the Taliban is
> largely disliked by the great majority of other Muslim states,
> especially Iran.
>
I didn't lump them all together. But each and every individual who knew
of and ignored the terrorists, and each and every government who did the
same are responsible.
You're right about the Taliban. But the Arabs in the Gulf War coalition
specifically forbade us from going after Saddam. They were okay on
liberating Kuwait, but not on bringing to justice the fellow who started
the whole thing. The guy who gassed his own people. They idiot who built
weapons of mass destruction for use on-- who? His Arab neighbors. The
fact is that the Arabs have no stomach for ensuring peace in their own
neighborhood. If you disagree, please cite the Arab country which
volunteered to go into Bagdad and capture Saddam on their own.
Look, this is a matter of personal and group responsibility. If you want
a sane and orderly society, the only way you'll get it is for the
members of that society to ensure it. Not the government. That's just
shirking individual responsibility. As a libertarian-leaner, you ought
to agree with that. But by the same token, when things go wrong because
the society didn't handle it in the first place, it falls to some other
entity to enforce order. In WWII, it was the Allies who were elected to
enforce order on a continent which allowed psychotic fascism to take
hold unchecked. In the cold war, it fell to the Americans to check the
abuses of the communist countries. And now, since the Arabs
(individually, familially, or governmentally) have failed to handle the
terrorists, it again has fallen upon us to do so.
> > How long can you do such things and expect not to be punished? They
> > simply had the misfortune to pick a fight with the most powerful country
> > in the history of this planet. Poor judgment. As a result, their people
> > in this country may be tracked, detained and questioned. I have no
> > sympathy, so long as innocent Arabs are not actually _persecuted_. They
> > have brought this upon themselves.
>
> No, an extremely small percentage of a culture has done a horrendous
> act. People like you return the act by labelling them all of the
> same. Understand that the Taliban _stands_alone_ in the Muslim
> world!
>
You're correct. And another small or large percentage of the population
of those countries allowed this to happen.
> > We stand as a beacon of freedom in a world which is not. Whether the
> > world likes to admit it or not, they would suffer immeasurably if it
> > were not so. As a result, we must protect this land and its ideals.
> > Perhaps to the detriment to some who are not citizens. It is the price
> > they and we must pay.
>
> And we will reap what we sow in our ignorance. We have already
> turned this country into a protectionalist state, where only the
> criminals can enter.
>
I don't think so. I roomed in college with an Iranian kid who was
studying engineering (not a terrorist, but not a frequent bather,
either ;-). Thousands of foreigners study at our universities
every year. Thousands of people come to this country to start
businesses, including Arabs. A small percentage of the people that enter
are terrorists.
> > By the way, this _is_ a war. While the ideals and principles that make
> > America great are still operative in times like this, the rules change a
> > bit during wars. We need to be mindful of that.
>
> Like the war on drugs? Crime?
>
The point you're making is?
Look, I don't know the answer. I don't know that we can track Arabs in
the U.S. Maybe not. And maybe it isn't even a good idea. OTOH, I haven't
heard a better one. My main point is that the ethics of a group are
enforceable primarily by that group. When the group fails to enforce
ethics, justice enters in the form of some outside entity.
Paul
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