Re: [SLUG-POL] open source projects for national security?

From: Bryan-TheBS-Smith (b.j.smith@ieee.org)
Date: Sun Oct 14 2001 - 09:55:04 EDT


Paul M Foster wrote:
> You probably know more about this than I do. I don't know in what way
> they're screwed up.

The H-1B Visa system is abused by 50% of employers that use it.
Worse is the confusion of technology v. engineering. We do *NOT*
have a shortage of technology workers in this country, but we *DO*
have a shortage of engineers. Unfortunately, the laws don't
differentiate.

Give incoming engineers green cards. That way, they'll leave a bad
job if they are abused and they'll demand the same wages as
Americans. Visas allow employers to pay holders half the wages of
Americans, and threaten them with deportation if they are
disgruntled. Again, 50% of employeers abuse the Visa system by
firing Americans and replacing them with foreigners at half the pay
rate and no fear of them leaving the company for almost a decade
(instead of the 2.7 years average US term at a job).

> And the point is? We can't stop them all, so don't try?

No, the point is that if you don't let anyone in, only the illegals
get in. America has always been a great nation _because_ of its
immigration and the income of talent. Unfortunately, we are not
making it near-impossible for anyone with intelligence to get into
this country. So all we are getting is illegals who don't bother to
work because they can get free social services. For God sakes, at
least let in the people who already speak English (not that that is
a requirement, but why are we turning them away???)!

Both the Democrats and Republicans are wrong on this. The Democrats
give out social services to illegals and the Republicans just want
to shut off the borders. Both only help the illegals.

> That's not really an argument, just rhetoric. Foreigners are welcome to
> apply for citizenship.

Yeah, which is only taking a good 8-15 years now! Unless you have a
million dollars to invest.

> Examples? I believe profiling has assisted us in catching quite a number
> of criminals. That's why the FBI invests so heavily in it.

There is a _difference_ between "forensics" and "profiling".
Forensics is the careful, scientific deduction of statistics and
facts to a final conclusion. Profiling is the application of quick,
general application of sterotypes without facts to an immediate
conclusion. The problem is that profiling is *NOT* very scientific,
and sometimes _dead_wrong_!

> The why is completely irrelevent. If you want to publish books on
> sociology, investigate the why. Otherwise, you only need to know the
> stats themselves.

And I'm telling you some of the hicks in Brevard county don't know
them!

> Besides which, most of the reasons why I've heard are completely
> without foundation.

I think arresting an old black woman and confiscating her money for
10 years only to be found innocent and get half her money back in
the end (let alone lost the rest in lawyer fees) is pretty pitiful.
She was returning to her home in Miami after receiving an
inheritance. But she was black, and had over $10,000 on her so she
was an obvious drug dealer heading down to Miami, right???

> Do Mexicans or Canadians commit an overwhelming number of crimes in this
> country? Frenchmen, Brits, Germans? And neither do Arabs, but some of
> them have committed some pretty heinous crimes within our borders.

Like??? You've got 9/11, what else??? What about the Oklahoma City
bombing??? Did that teach us anything???

> Gosh, there must be a lot of terrorism going on domestically that I
> don't know of. Let's see, there's Oklahoma City, and the Unabomber. What
> else?

I guess you only listen to the Liberal media, eh?

> I didn't say Arabs as a culture/race support terrorism. But let's
> compare. Of all the Arab countries, how man support terrorism? Now, of
> all the European countries, how many support terrorism?

Actually, I'd guess about 5 each. Seriously.

> But that's not even the point, which you missed. If your brother goes
> and joins Hamas, you know it, right?

But Hamas is a known group. I agree. But how many Arabs have
family members in the Hamas? An very small amount dude!

> And what do you do? Ignore it, or turn him in? If
> you ignore it (as obviously most of the families in Arab countries do),

Most??? Dude, you really need to check those statistics for
_reality_!

Just because the single ruling family of Saudia Arabia was
supporting the Hamas doesn't mean everyone is!

> then you are condoning and encouraging this terrorism.

Of course! But it is *NOT* "most"!

The overwhelming majority of Islamic believers and Muslims are peace
loving, and are quick to rebuke anyone who would join such an
organization.

> Eventually, your brother is going to fly a plane into a large building
> and call the wrath of a large and powerful country down upon you. The
> point is, the ethics of a community-- any community-- are the
> responsibility of the members of that community to enforce.

With your logical, you are saying the American public should be held
accountable for its foreign policy, right???

> When the members of a community fail to enforce the ethics on that
> community, then it falls to others to use justice to enforce ethics.

The problem with your argument is that the "Arab community" has
*ZILCH* to do with these small factions. It's just like here in the
US, violent partisan groups and organized crime exist no matter how
much we try to prevent them. Same concept dude.

> You are correct. There is no excuse for this behavior, and those who
> knew of and ignored it are guilty as well.

Take a lesson from Vietnam, the enemy is among us and we often
cannot distinguish. One of the leaders of the Hamas was a professor
at USF!!

> Shall I mention a certain European country which waged war on half the
> world 60 years ago?

Which would be a good example of what???

How about the Muslim ethic cleasing by Christians just a couple of
years ago? What about the million that died in an African nation in
the last decade??? How about Cambodia??? There have bare at least
2 dozen different Hitlers since WWII.

> It's been said that the population of that country
> didn't really know what was going on, either. Yet Mein Kampf was a
> bestseller in that country. Arab nations know, and so do the people
> within them.

Dude, you continue to miss my point.

> You've been listening to too much Arab propaganda.

Some of it *IS* propaganda. But some of it is *FACT*. The Israelis
do not follow a code of conduct as our country does. When we
support this, this enfuriates Arab nations. Especially when _they_
follow one better than the Israelis!

> None of this is truly about Israel.

Unfortunately, Israel continues to make the situation worse. I hope
that Bush starts holding them responsible for their own, horrendous
acts. They do *NOT* follow the rules of engagement, and they do
*NOT* follow civilized warfare at times. They often instigate
actions and answer to no one!

> This is about men who crave power and manipulate ignorant
> populations to get it.

I don't see any "ignorant populations" being manipulated??? Even
the Palastine is mouring over this whole incident. Or are you
assuming the whole dozen childred the media was able to tape as
proof that all of Palastine agreed with the actions taken 9/11???

> Israel is simply a convenient target.

Israel will continue to be an ally that is a thorn in our side at
the same time.

> If it didn't exist, these people would find another target, since doing so
> galvanizes their followers.

I will not disagree with the fact that the Arab nations dislike
Israel. But most have kept that dislike inside their borders since
the mid-70s. Unfortunately, Israel continues to take action without
due process which enfuriates much of the rest of the world.

> Then why are we bombing an Arab country? For the fun of it?
> They have knowingly exported terrorism to this country, and
> now we bomb them.

We are *NOT* bombing "just another Arab country" and its people.
Taliban != Arab. The Taliban and Iran regimes are like comparing
Northern Ireland and England! The Taliban does *NOT* represent the
great majority of Muslim faiths. They are an _extreme_case_ that is
disliked by just about everyone, especially Iran where they have
killed thousands of their faith.

So don't you _dare_ say the Arab nations are the same as the Taliban
and Afganistan! Don't be so ignorant.

> Cause. Effect. Seems fairly simple to me. Seems pretty simple to the
> government as well.

Over-simplified cause, ignorance in effect. American programming
complete.

> Examples? I'm sorry, but I don't recall that last time we flew a
> civilian plane into a skyscraper.

Oh, well, if you are going to be _that_specific_! I guess not!

> And the damage so extensive. The percentage doesn't matter.

I rest my case. Nothing is worse that putting justice in the hands
of the violated.

> The people who knew of this and let it go are as responsible as those
> who committed the acts. No, of course it isn't all Arabs, nor probably
> _all_ Arab countries.

I only see one Arab country where the Taliban rules. Please don't
associate the Arabic state and religions with the Taliban. They are
radically different in all cases.

> I didn't lump them all together. But each and every individual who knew
> of and ignored the terrorists, and each and every government who did the
> same are responsible.

> You're right about the Taliban. But the Arabs in the Gulf War coalition
> specifically forbade us from going after Saddam.

No, a 1975 Presidential mandate forbade us.

> They were okay on liberating Kuwait, but not on bringing to justice the
> fellow who started the whole thing.

I'm not going to get into that debate. But just know that *IF* we
wanted to get him, it would have taken a lot more resources than
Americans realized.

You save that "expediture" for people who directly threaten innocent
Americans, like Bin Laden.

> The guy who gassed his own people.

Yeah, the same people who the Turks regularly have to combat as
well. Dude, I know it is wrong to use chemical weapons, but that
overused statement is getting old.

> They idiot who built weapons of mass destruction for use on-- who?
> His Arab neighbors. The fact is that the Arabs have no stomach for
> ensuring peace in their own neighborhood.

Just like the British and Northern Ireland don't. Just like the
Balkin states. Same principle, more countries. Don't lump all
Arabs into the same boat, they disagree with each other over there.

> If you disagree, please cite the Arab country which
> volunteered to go into Bagdad and capture Saddam on their own.

Iran? You _know_ Iran hates them, as they hate Afganistan. But
Iran played nice and got almost 100 free Migs out of the deal.
Smart move. ;-PPP Iran is like the France of the Arab world.

> Look, this is a matter of personal and group responsibility. If you want
> a sane and orderly society, the only way you'll get it is for the
> members of that society to ensure it. Not the government. That's just
> shirking individual responsibility. As a libertarian-leaner, you ought
> to agree with that.

I don't agree with the application you are trying to use. It's not
relevant. The great majority of Muslims are free thinkers who
follow their own path. They are not so different my friend.

> But by the same token, when things go wrong because
> the society didn't handle it in the first place, it falls to some other
> entity to enforce order. In WWII, it was the Allies who were elected to
> enforce order on a continent which allowed psychotic fascism to take
> hold unchecked.

That's interesting, because the current US economic model is quickly
becoming facist itself. As a result, this is quickly turning into a
facist social model as well. But only us Libertarians see it.
;-PPP

> In the cold war, it fell to the Americans to check the
> abuses of the communist countries.

Oh yeah, that worked well in a lot of places ... Korea, Vietnam ...
Afganistan??? ;-PPP

> And now, since the Arabs (individually, familially, or governmentally)
> have failed to handle the terrorists, it again has fallen upon us to do so.

No, the Taliban regime is a Arab outcast that has done so. *NOT*
the Arab people as a whole.

> You're correct. And another small or large percentage of the population
> of those countries allowed this to happen.

Of most Arab nations???

> I don't think so. I roomed in college with an Iranian kid who was
> studying engineering (not a terrorist, but not a frequent bather,
> either ;-). Thousands of foreigners study at our universities
> every year. Thousands of people come to this country to start
> businesses, including Arabs. A small percentage of the people that enter
> are terrorists.

*BUT*, because of this recent acts, we will no longer let in those
good people. This is unfortunately.

I have schooled and worked with many Muslims in my time. One was
even deported for 6 months and lost a year of school because of an
INS paperwork snafu. So instead of getting INS to do their job,
we're just going to take it away from them.

And our country will only inherit the worst the world has to offer
-- instead of the law-abiding, intelligent ones that are trying to
get in legitimately.

> The point you're making is?

The point I'm making is that both the war on drug and crime have
become _political_ nightmares. Whether you agree with them or not,
they are political battleground where PC rules. Crime has steadily
gone down over the last decade. Columbine was an isolated innocent
and was *NOT* the worst (some of the worst were in the '80s), but
the liberal media won't let it go. And we are damn lucky a Democrat
wasn't in the White House when this happened or guns would probably
be outlaws right now.

Politics always rule.

> Look, I don't know the answer. I don't know that we can track Arabs in
> the U.S. Maybe not.

When a Chinese national on the FBI's watch list can get a top secret
clearance, I'd say not.

> And maybe it isn't even a good idea. OTOH, I haven't
> heard a better one.

A better one would be to stop focusing on the public and
immigration. Limit people's access to airports and flight schools.
Investigate more people for longer when they try to obtain
clearances. Do tighten up our borders and crack down on those
organizations who are getting them in (because many lead to other
criminal activities), but don't prevent intelligent people from
getting in this country.

But most of all, Americans need to stop labelling the Arab nations
and people as non-peace loving terrorists. The saddest thing about
this whole incident is the vigilanty actions and attitudes Americans
have against those "fit the profile." God knows that turbin-wearing
Hindus are being presecuted by Americans, and they aren't even
Muslims (but Indians)!!!

> My main point is that the ethics of a group are enforceable primarily
> by that group. When the group fails to enforce ethics, justice enters
> in the form of some outside entity.

And that's the "holy war" attitude that is such a "double
standard." No wonder! I mean, think about it!

-- TheBS

-- 
Bryan "TheBS" Smith     mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org    chat:thebs413
Engineer   AbsoluteValue Systems, Inc.   http://www.linux-wlan.org
President    SmithConcepts, Inc.      http://www.SmithConcepts.com
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