On Tue, 2002-06-18 at 07:59, David Meyer wrote:
> Justin,
>
> You did not have the conversation with Red Hat...I did. I am not giving stuff
> away, I am a business. When I sell a PC I include a SUPPORTED copy of SuSE
> which I have purchased from them directly at my cost, which I in turn pass
> along to the consumer when they purchase a system. Again, I am a business.
> SuSE requires me to do this because I am SELLING the PC's and servers.
> However, if I come to a SLUG meeting, I can pass out all the copied CD's I
> want. Why, because I am not selling anything, thus I am not making a profit
> on any part of the sale. If you'd like a copy of SuSE 8.0, I'll get you
> one...because I can.
Right. SuSE must understand ISVs and VARs. RedHat obviously does not.
> I asked Red Hat (Chad was the name of the individual I spoke to in the OEM /
> VAR department) and I was told that I_AM_NOT in any way, shape, or form
> allowed to put any Red Hat product on anything I sell, whether I download a
> copy or buy a boxed copy. Red Hat says they boxed sets you buy at CompUSA
> make up less that 1% of their revenue, so they don't consider that the same
> way SuSE does. They are concentrating on their advanced server product and
> the support contract that goes along with it.
Wow. Chad? Ok. I'll ask Chris about Chad when he calls me back. Chris
seems to be a busy guy and isn't in the office today.
> My problem is that that 99% of the customers I sell to run programs (backup,
> virtualization, etc) that MUST, MUST, MUST run on a name branded copy to be
> supported by the other manufacturer. That's just a fact of life that my
> customers must deal with. Most of my customers are commercial, not
> residential, so they have business requirements that the typical home users
> may not have.
And it is bizarre that RedHat would kill this market to systems
integrators such as yourself.
> Open your eyes and read this carefully
> Justin...I_DON'T_WANT_TO_SELL_DOWNLOADED_DISTROS. That would be against the
> law, and I've never disagreed with that. I PURCHASE a BOXED_SET of the
> product and DO_NOT_MAKE_ANY (I_REPEAT) ANY_MONEY OFF_OF_THAT_BOXED SET.
Right. I wouldn't want to sell downloaded distros either. I would like
to sell RedHat pre-installed on servers with a boxed retail version, but
it sounds as if RedHat doesn't permit this.
If this is for a school or other non-profit institution, I would be
suprised if RedHat is not offering incentives for their retail version
or outright permission to install their GPL version as part of a public
project.
If they aren't, they're only hurting themselves.
> I_HAVE_NOTSPREAD_ANY_FUD. Again, I had the conversation with Red Hat Sir,
> you did not. If you would take a minute and read the posts from Robin, you'd
> understand that perhaps, just maybe, I'm being flamed for NO_REASON. You
> people that defend Red Hat like Microsoft are just upset that your favorite
> distro might not be all it's cracked up to be as a company.
*sigh* Why throw mud? It's messy and only instigates further mud
throwing. There really is no need for this.
> As far as their solution being more expensive than Microsoft, you speak of
> things you do not know. Advanced Server is not cheap. On top of that, throw
> in the annual support contract and the annual support contracts of the
> workstations and PC's and the cost is astronomical. Until you know what YOU
> are talking about, don't fan the flames. Red Hat openly states that they
> make their money from the support contracts. I know how much Microsoft
> solutions cost...because I can sell them too. Some companies are still
> unwilling to make the change to Linux, and as a business we'd be crazy not to
> sell them what they want if they won't buy what we want to sell them.
If I read his message correctly, I believe he stated "... there's no way
in hell it would be more expensive than an MS solution." There's nothing
there about Redhat actually being more expensive. I think you may have
jumped the gun with this - but there are other parts of his email that
are potential flamebait as well, so I won't fault you.
> I have said from day one I am not, nor will I ever, make a dime on any
> operating system I sell. I provide quality solutions, and having a solid
> Linux base is what we build those solutions on. Offering Linux for my cost,
> in my mind, is where the spirit of Linux users is. RED_HAT_DOES_NOT_AGREE.
> Chad, the individual who is in charge of their OEM / VAR department
> WILL_TELL_YOU_SO. By the way, if you call, be prepared to get the shock of
> your life. He'll tell you about the GPL material, but to quote Mr. Messer, a
> compensated Red Hat employee:
Well, if the school is interested in using exclusively RedHat, I'd have
them contact RedHat and arrange it themselves. If the school is not
interested, I'd use whatever distro you feel fit in supporting and/or
selling (given that distro's willingness to be resold).
> Frankly Justin, your comments show you have not read the very enlightening
> comments from Robin about Red Hat, nor have you bothered to read the rest of
> the well written messages that followed. Let me tell you again that I am a
> business and know all to well about following the rules. So please, don't
> feel the need to tell me how to run my business...I already pay a lawyer and
> and accountant a lot of money to do that.
Sometimes rules were meant to be changed. I try not to always think
inside the box. There are always other distros and other methods of
getting software "legally" installed.
> I hope this clears this up once and for all. You think I'm a troll and speak
> FUD. Frankly, don't care what you or anyone else thinks. People on this
Hrm. Frankly, I *do* care what others think, which is why I avoid
reponding directly to flamebait. The only dead flamewar is one without
fuel.
> list that know me know differently. People that know how Red Hat does
> business (like Robin) understand and post good, informative comments that
> would have made comments like yours unnecessary. In the end, you make me
> laugh because you either have not read his post, or your so in bed with your
> downloaded version that you believe Red Hat can do no wrong.
*double sigh*
> I had the conversation with Red Hat, you did not. You don't want to believe
> me, fine. In the end, only the following matters:
I'm awaiting a call back. I'll continue calling until I can get Chris,
or save that, hunt down "Chad" and have a nice civil talk with him.
Honestly, I'm interested in the business mindset of RedHat and what
exactly their thinking is.
> 1. I am a business and I follow the rules.
I'll argue that it depends on the rules.
> 2. Red Hat's rules prohibit a business from selling anything that has their
> logo, tools, etc. on it unless you are one of their official OEM partners.
Right. A reseller arangement. I can understand this. But I don't
understand how they can stop someone from buying the retail boxed
version themselves and have you install it for them.
> 3. While I was told yesterday that Red Hat, specifically by Mr. Messer, that
> they would work with me on the schools, the OEM / VAR position is still up in
> the air. They are two completely different departments within Red Hat.
Good! They will work with you on the schools. This is what they *should*
be doing.
> 3. SuSE and others have OEM agreements and other arrangements for businesses
> like mine. I am a SuSE business partner and sell ALL of their products. I
> would have liked to do the same with Red Hat.
RedHat is keeping a tight reign on their channel partners. SuSE is not.
No wonder SuSE is growing so rapidly.
> 4. Because I follow the rules and run my business in the black (that means
> I'm profitable) I'll not have any lawyers showing up on my front door.
This is America. I'll not get started on how pliable the business world
really is, and how open to lawsuits and other inane legalities we are.
Rules are not black and white, they are shades of grey (it sometimes
takes a legal mind to see the grey, however). Granted, it is always
better to walk the righteous side of that line, but I know better than
to think that there are never alternatives.
> 5. My goal is to provide SOLID, legal solutions to my customers. Not to make
> you happy. If you can't understand that I don't want to, nor have I ever
> made any money from a Red Hat or any other company, I can't help you.
> Believe what you will, frankly, I don't care what you think. Again, you
> don't know me. You did not have the conversation with Red Hat.
>
> Dave (aka The Troll) although I represent an Ogre much more. Kind of like
> Shrek, but with more warts. Have a nice day all.
Show us more of that Shrek-esque inner beauty.
- Ian "Troll-Free" Blenke <icblenke@nks.net> <ian@blenke.com>
http://ian.blenke.com
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.3 : Fri Aug 01 2014 - 12:51:18 EDT