On Tue, 2004-12-07 at 22:21, Bob Stia wrote:
> Brian,
> ...........<snipping a whole bunch>................
> This reply is a few days late because I have read & reread your
> recommendations several times and I am confused.
Yeah, it's a big long and made some assumptions on what you may have
already known. I'd point you to some of the PC_Support archives on
PCI-Express, but we don't have our archives restored ... yet.
> I respect your expertise immensely and would probably follow your advice.
Ack, don't go there, I could be full of BS.
> I seek specific advice. (That is also true for the other Sluggers out
> there who would make a recommendation. )
> Alas, just a few weeks ago I purchased a new MSI K8T motherboard with a
> 939 socket and an AMD_64 bit Athlon 3500 + with a gig of ram and an AGP
> slot. I am extremely happy though because it works great. Extremely
> fast.
Yes, if I/O is not an issue, then it works very well.
> Didn't know about the upcoming PCI Express. I reused my old
> Voodoo 3 videocard.( PCI )
Ouch. Well, as long as you're not running your video at high
resolutions, then you should be good. You're basically leaving a
dedicated PCI channel (the AGP) unused. I wouldn't be surprised if
you're getting "choppy audio" in some entertainment titles.
> My children would like to purchase a new videocard for me for Christmas in
> the not so expensive range. I am not a serious gamer although I like
> to play games from time to time.
> Sooooo, can you boil it down for me a little ???
Yeah. In a nutshell, here's the deal.
#1: nVidia Generation comparison (this is mega-oversimplified):
NV2x (GeForce 3 and 4"Ti" series): Old best bang for the buck
NV3x (GeForce "FX" 5000 series): Not so good bang for the buck
NV4x (GeForce 6000 series): New best bang for the buck
Pure "performance-wise," there is not much difference between the NV2x
and NV3x series. In fact, some of the cheaper NV3x series (GeForce
5200, 5500 and 5700LE) are typically _slower_ than most of the NV2x
series (GeForce 4 Ti4200-4800). BTW, don't confuse the GeForce 4 "Ti"
products (NV25) with the cheaper/more-common GeForce 4 "MX" (NV17). The
latter is the _previous_ generation NV1x series (GeForce 1/2 core).
The only thing the NV3x has is some extra capabilities that make it
perform better at OpenGL (and DirectX 9) software, especially when you
use Full Screen Anti-Aliasing (FSAA) which reduces the number of
"jaggies" on the edges between objects. It basically takes a GeForce
FX5700 ("true"/non-"LE") or FX5700Ultra to being to "equal" the GeForce
4 Ti4200-4800 at most titles, and even then it still loses on older DX
apps without FSAA.
The new NV4x series is best of both worlds, more performance at both
older and newer features.
#2: Here are the typical options you have for PCIe and AGP:
PCIe (PCI-Express):
$ 75-100 GeForce 6200
$125-150 GeForce 6600
$175-200 GeForce 6600GT
$350-375 GeForce 6800 (aka 6800GE)
$375-500 GeForce 6800GT
$600-700 GeForce 6800Ultra
[ NOTE: I _purposely_ left off the GeForce PCX 5000 series because they
are not worth a dime if you have PCI-Express ]
AGP:
$ 50- 75 GeForce Ti4200/4800
$ 50- 75 GeForce FX5200
$ 75-100 GeForce FX5500
$ 75-125 GeForce FX5700LE
$100-125 GeForce FX5600XT
$125-200 GeForce FX5700 ("true"/non-"LE" _very_ hard to find!)
$175-200 GeForce FX5700Ultra
$175-250 GeForce 5900
$225-250 GeForce 6600GT
$250-275 GeForce 6800LE
$275-325 GeForce 6800
$325-400 GeForce 6800GT
$300-600 GeForce 6800Ultra
[ I won't list the GeForce 5900Ultra/5950 as they are $350+ and can't be
the cheaper 6800 series for the same bang ]
Looking at the list, you'll realize the following:
A) On PCI-Express, the 6200/6600 are cheap, but the 6800 tends to be
more expensive than its AGP equivalent. Long story short, the newer
NV4x (43/45 6200/6600) is natively PCI-Express, while the older NV4x
(40/41 6800) is natively AGP. A bridge chip is required for the older,
but faster 6800 series.
B) On AGP, it's the opposite. The 6600GT is more expensive because it
requires a bridge to AGP, but the 6800 series is cheaper because it is
native to AGP. In fact, the 6800LE is probably a better option than the
6600GT for $25 more.
C) The "cheap" AGP solutions _suck_ because the NV3x is still "selling
well" for nVidia -- especially the 5600XT (NV31) and 5200/5200 (NV34).
These things can be _half_ the speed of the older GeForce Ti4200!
nVidia won't introduce an AGP version of the 6200 or 6600, only the
6600GT (which is almost the cost of the 6800LE, so not worth it),
because it competes with the 5200/5500/5600XT.
So given these facts, here are some conclusions:
1. If you want a "solid AGP video card" for $50-75, the GeForce Ti4200
(Ti4200-8x or Ti4800 -- which isn't too much different) is still good.
Aim for 128MB for a few bucks more.
2. _Avoid_ the GeForce FX5200, 5500 and even 5600XT, even if they have
256MB of RAM. They _suck_. In the "best case scenario," about the only
place they can "match" the GeForce 4 Ti4200-4800 is in Doom3 with _all_
of the options _jacked_up_ (including Isotropic Filtering). But then
you're running at 10fps, so it doesn't matter. ;-ppp
3. If you can find a "true" GeForce FX5700 for AGP for cheap (like
$125), and not the overwhelming number of FX5700"LE" cards (which is 40%
_slower_), then that will be near-equivalent in older titles to the
Ti4200, but faster in more OpenGL or when you use FSAA.
4. If you really want a "higher-end" card, you've got two options:
AGP: Start with the GeForce 6800LE or 6800 for $250-325
PCIe: Buy a new, "regular" nForce4 mainboard (due in January) for
about $125, and then a GeForce 6200, 6600 or 6600GT for about
$75-175 (your choice)
The 6200-6600 are not quite a 6800, but they are _far_closer_ than a
GeForce FX5700, and even the FX5900 series is not quite any 6000 series
card.
-- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith@ieee.org ------------------------------------------------------------------ Beware of advocates who justify their preference not in terms of what they like about their "choice," but what they did not like about another option. Such advocacy is more hurtful than helpful.----------------------------------------------------------------------- This list is provided as an unmoderated internet service by Networked Knowledge Systems (NKS). Views and opinions expressed in messages posted are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of NKS or any of its employees.
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