RE: [SLUG] RE: Need adapter for SUN SPARC monitor -- why should this benecessary?

From: Ken Elliott (kelliott4@tampabay.rr.com)
Date: Sun Oct 17 2004 - 11:39:15 EDT


>>Here you are lecturing _me_ on "vendors" and yet you provide _vendor_
sites?

Did I come across as lecturing? Sorry. I only wanted to provide examples
of why I prefer commodity interfaces.

>>99% of the IT media and IT professionals out there have _totally_missed_
the fact that Looking Glass is _not_ about 3D!
>>Looking Glass is probably the most misunderstood project right now.

I checked Sun's site and that seemed to be what they were saying about the
product. From what you say, it would appear that Sun doesn't do a very good
job of describing the product. I don't have time to research every detail
about technology that doesn't pertain to my missions. Perhaps you should
suggest to Sun that they do a better job in describing their vision.

>>It's a _true_ 3D output

I'd have to disagree. A 5-axis mill is a true 3D output device, as is a
stereo lithography system. Most such systems I've used could more
accurately be called a 3D simulation. And true 3D 6-axis-of-freedom input
systems exist.

>>Define "CAD" because a lot of people think "CAD" means Autodesk products
and no one else. That's just said, especially when you ignore CAM, modeling
and, even more so, EDA.

I would suggest that if you want to discuss CAD, you should consider
researching the subject. The conversion of the market from 2D drafting to
3D is far from over, and is a hotly debated issue among CAD professionals.
In a nutshell, the vendors think the users are stupid and the users are mad
about the severe limitations of pretty much all the systems. While you can
find some who have great success with 3D CAD, you find many more with horror
stories of missed deadlines and failed projects. But this is another topic
for another forum.

>>And 13W3 is a far better video connector than DB15.
Agreed.

This will be my last post on this subject. I consider Brian to be a very
intelligent and well informed expert. But it appears my replies have come
across to him as an attack. I'm sorry to everyone on this list for wasting
the bandwidth of this non-Linux topic.

Ken Elliott

=====================
-----Original Message-----
From: slug@nks.net [mailto:slug@nks.net] On Behalf Of Bryan J. Smith
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 10:48 AM
To: slug@nks.net
Subject: [SLUG] RE: Need adapter for SUN SPARC monitor -- why should this
benecessary?

On Sun, 2004-10-17 at 09:46, Ken Elliott wrote:
> But didn't this thread start off by someone looking for a KVM switch,
> complaining about Sun's use of different connectors?

Yes, and I pointed out there _are_ KVMs with _both_ PC and SUN.
Furthermore, PS/2 is quite _PC_only_, as well as the PC layout.
By your same view, old Mac, Digital, etc... are "proprietary."
Just because it's not "commodity" doesn't mean "proprietary."
In fact, Digital's 12-year old serial bus was better than USB.

Lastly, you _can_ buy a USB KVM switch and it solves the problem nicely for
_all_ newer systems -- be it PC, Mac, SUN, etc...

> Of course. That was my point. I want freedom of choice, not to be
> locked into what one vendor chooses to make available.

It's _not_ "lock-in." SUN _will_ take a PC keyboard/mouse, as well as newer
USB devices. Stop calling it "lock-in"!

> And to be able to use common KVM switches found at local stores.

And that's understandable -- i.e., you prefer "commodity."
But just because it is not "commodity" doesn't mean "lock-in" or
"proprietary."

> As far as I know, Sun doesn't. Here's examples of what kind of input
> devices I'm talking about:
> http://www.fingerworks.com/
> http://www.maltron.com/

Here you are lecturing _me_ on "vendors" and yet you provide _vendor_ sites?
Of course, some vendors are going to be PC-only. But that does _not_ mean
_other_vendors_ do not exist that provide the same for SUN, Mac, etc...!
Get off it dude!

> When I looked at it, it seems like "bling" to me. There's lots of 3D
> interface work, and over 15 years, none of it has ever taken hold,
> because none of it has ever proven to be anything but "cool demo-ware".

That's because 99% of the IT media and IT professionals out there have
_totally_missed_ the fact that Looking Glass is _not_ about 3D! They have
provided a "technology demonstration" that shows off its 3D capabilities,
but Looking Glass itself is a "next generation subsystem with API" for X.

> I'm amused by them calling it "true 3D" when it displays on a 2D device.

That's because the "next generation subsystem with API" that is _fully_ 3D
-- from input to output. Of course, people like yourself don't bother to
read the technical documentation, so you don't know this.

Read up on what "Looking Glass" _is_ -- not what the media says about just
the "technology demonstration." Honest to God, it's bad enough I deal with
Windows people who don't bother to "read all the details," but com'mon, I'm
sick of this on a Linux list.

I guess that's why I make the big bucks. I read the hardcore stuff, and
predict changes in the industry 3+ years before they happen. I can also
explain why companies do things, from a non-enthusiast point of view. I can
even explain Microsoft (e.g., you first have to understand they are an
investment company, not a software company).

> Even the CAD world has still been dragging in 2D to 3D conversion.

Define "CAD" because a lot of people think "CAD" means Autodesk products and
no one else. That's just said, especially when you ignore CAM, modeling
and, even more so, EDA.

> It seems cool to flip a window around to make notes,

Again, _stop_ assuming "Looking Glass" = "technology demonstration."
Read up on what Looking Glass _is_.

> but when you use it, you hide the content. So, you end up flipping the
> screen back-and-forth. A pop-up note window works far better.

I can't even respond because you're talking about the "technology
demonstration." That is _not_ the Looking Glass project, just a sample of
what it can do on today's input/output devices.

When you see Looking Glass on an LCD+lenticular screen, with eyeball
tracking, you'll see what it's capable of. It's a _true_ 3D output _and_
input subsystem and API, tying into X, although augmenting it heavily.

> Another case of looks cool, doesn't really work well, and eats CPU
> cycles, while obsolescing older hardware. Great for Sun, bad for
> users. Can't see what this has to do with the issue of special
> connectors preventing the use a standard KVM switches, though.

Exactly. Because you started talking about the "technology demonstration"
instead of focusing on what I was trying to talk about, that Sun has
furthered "accessibility" with various components in GNOME through their
latest Looking Glass project.

The problem is that most people only assume things based on what they know.
I recommend you go research Sun Microsystems, look at all the _standards_
they adhere to and create, read up on their GNOME accessibility donations
and read up more on Looking Glass and what it _really_does_ to Linux/X.

> Odd, that you assume I'm "just" a PC user - a poor assumption on
> _your_ part.

I make that assumption based on your responses. You obviously are not
familiar with the details I discussed. And you seem to be argumentative
about things you don't know about -- e.g., Looking Glass.

Looking Glass is probably the most misunderstood project right now.
That's typically of the IT media and professionals who look at the "eye
candy" of a "demo" and not the technical substance in the project.

> My point is that use of common connectors and interfaces is desirable,
> when possible. That allows us for example, to buy a KVM switch from a
> local store. You offer no case as to why Sun's choice is of any
advantage.

I _never_ said SUN offered an "advantage."
I did say PC is not necessarily better.
Especially since "commodity" is not necessarily better.

PS/2 and DB15 is very PC-centric, commodity, but not necessarily better.
Apple, Sun and, especially, Digital serial buses were better than USB.
And 13W3 is a far better video connector than DB15.

I never said "commodity" didn't have its advantages.
But I _did_ say it was not necessarily "better" because of them.
PC users seem to not differentiate between the two.

And that's why most PC hardware is Windows version-specific.
Hence the "superstore profit model" which I have discussed in detail
elsewhere.
And why AOL, Microsoft and other hardware/software companies own significant
percentages of Best Buy, Circuit City, CompUSA, etc...

> If there is, please be so kind as to educate me.

Again, don't confuse "commodity" with "better."
Also read up on Sun.

-- 
Bryan J. Smith                                  b.j.smith@ieee.org 
------------------------------------------------------------------
"Communities don't have rights. Only individuals in the community  have
rights. ... That idea of community rights is firmly rooted  in the
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